HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   By The Numbers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=241)
-   -   Measuring offensive production (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=878672)

 matnor 02-16-2011 01:16 PM

Measuring offensive production

A common way of measuring how good players are offensively around here is to count top-5, top-10 and top-20 finishes in goals, assists and points (see, for instance http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=614595 and http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=633070). While I think it's a relatively good way of comparing players I feel it punishes players who misses 10-15 games in a season disproportionally. For instance, let's say Crosby finishes outside the top-10 in scoring this season. Just comparing top-10 finishes would then ignore his amazing play the during the first half of the season. An alternative way is then to use top-10 finishes in ppg. That, on the other hand gives too much credit for players who are injured often.

I'll propose a different way of measuring elite offensive production. The idea is that players scoring at a top-10 pace should be rewarded for that but only in relation too how many games they actually played. Specifically, I consider a player scoring at a top-10 pace if he has at least as high ppg as the player with the 10th highest ppg of those playing at least half of the games in a season. I then summarize the amount of games each player has played at such a pace. Additionally, I adjust the season-length to a 82-game schedule since modern players otherwise would have an unfair advantage due to playing more games each season. I only consider games played in the NHL.

Let me exemplify this method taking Maurice Richard's season in 57/58. In this season he scored 34 points in 28 games. Of all the players who played at least half the season (35 games) the player with the 10th highest ppg was Alex Delvecchio who scored 59 points in 70 games. Clearly Richard scored at a higher pace than that so he gets credited for having scored at a top-10 pace for 28*(82/70)=33 games.

This is the top-50 in games played scoring at a top-5 pace:

 Rank Player GP at top-5 pace 1. Gordie Howe 1589 2. Wayne Gretzky 1103 3. Maurice Richard 882 4. Mario Lemieux 815 5. Stan Mikita 785 6. Bobby Hull 777 7. Jean Beliveau 700 8. Jaromir Jagr 680 9. Phil Esposito 651 10. Cy Denneny 632 11. Syl Apps 607 12. Andy Bathgate 569 13. Marcel Dionne 492 14. Bobby Orr 480 15. Bernie Geoffrion 477 15. Ted Lindsay 477 15. Howie Morenz 477 18. Guy Lafleur 474 19. Babe Dye 460 20. Doug Bentley 455 21. Bill Cowley 437 22. Sidney Crosby 415 23. Charlie Conacher 404 24. Elmer Lach 399 25. Alex Ovechkin 396 26. Mike Bossy 392 27. Busher Jackson 379 28. Joe Sakic 377 29. Peter Forsberg 346 30. Joe Malone 343 31. Eric Lindros 338 32. Marty Barry 326 33. Nels Stewart 322 34. Max Bentley 315 35. Steve Yzerman 311 36. Bryan Trottier 309 37. Jari Kurri 301 38. Newsy Lalonde 290 39. Sweeney Schriner 289 40. Dickie Moore 269 41. Bill Cook 246 41. Martin St. Louis 246 43. Toe Blake 244 44. Ken Hodge 243 45. Frank Boucher 242 46. Markus Naslund 241 47. Joe Thornton 240 48. Evgeni Malkin 239 49. Peter Stastny 237 50. Milt Schmidt 235

Next is the top-50 in games played scoring at a top-10 pace:

 Rank Player GP at top-10 pace 1. Gordie Howe 1671 2. Wayne Gretzky 1267 3. Jean Beliveau 1096 4. Maurice Richard 1013 5. Bobby Hull 935 6. Mario Lemieux 890 7. Stan Mikita 785 8. Nels Stewart 782 9. Ted Lindsay 774 10. Andy Bathgate 733 11. Phil Esposito 732 12. Marcel Dionne 722 13. Aurel Joliat 720 14. Howie Morenz 712 15. Alex Delvecchio 706 16. Joe Sakic 693 17. Mark Messier 692 18. Syl Apps 681 19. Jaromir Jagr 680 20. Bill Cowley 645 21. Elmer Lach 636 22. Cy Denneny 632 23. Mike Bossy 629 24. Bernie Geoffrion 624 25. Frank Boucher 570 26. Reg Noble 562 27. John Bucyk 553 27. Peter Forsberg 553 29. Teemu Selanne 539 30. Doug Bentley 530 30. Babe Dye 530 30. Steve Yzerman 530 33. Henri Richard 529 34. Eric Lindros 528 34. Paul Coffey 528 36. Guy Lafleur 526 37. Denis Savard 519 38. Bobby Orr 501 39. Sidney Crosby 496 40. Marty Barry 489 41. Bill Cook 488 42. Norm Ullman 481 43. Frank Mahovlich 479 44. Bobby Clarke 478 45. Jean Ratelle 477 46. Peter Stastny 476 47. Alex Ovechkin 475 48. Charlie Conacher 472 48. Rod Gilbert 472 50. Darryl Sittler 466

Finally, here is the top-50 in games played scoring at a top-20 pace:

 Rank Player GP at top-10 pace 1. Gordie Howe 1835 2. Wayne Gretzky 1391 3. John Bucyk 1244 4. Jean Beliveau 1226 5. Norm Ullman 1197 6. Alex Delvecchio 1193 7. Frank Mahovlich 1166 8. Stan Mikita 1151 9. Phil Esposito 1133 10. Joe Sakic 1120 11. Marcel Dionne 1116 12. Nels Stewart 1104 13. Maurice Richard 1089 14. Bobby Hull 1014 15. Jaromir Jagr 992 16. Bernie Geoffrion 901 17. Mario Lemieux 890 17. Mark Messier 890 19. Jean Ratelle 881 20. Andy Bathgate 880 21. Ted Lindsay 856 22. Steve Yzerman 851 23. Howie Morenz 842 24. Henri Richard 820 25. Frank Boucher 813 26. Aurel Joliat 800 27. Gilbert Perreault 796 28. Cy Denneny 792 29. Elmer Lach 787 30. Teemu Selanne 778 31. Rod Gilbert 777 32. Mike Bossy 771 33. Bill Cowley 758 34. Toe Blake 754 35. Paul Coffey 748 36. Dale Hawerchuk 729 37. Reg Noble 719 38. Ted Kennedy 710 39. Joe Thornton 708 40. Red Kelly 699 41. Adam Oates 698 42. Peter Stastny 692 43. Ron Francis 688 44. Roy Conacher 682 44. Peter Forsberg 682 46. Syl Apps 681 47. Brett Hull 679 48. Denis Savard 676 49. Sweeney Schriner 662 50. Marty Barry 653

Edit: Changed minor errors in the tables.

Edit2: Updated through the 2011-12 season.

Edit3: Updated through the 2012-13 season.

 SidGenoMario 02-16-2011 01:29 PM

What an awesome idea, I've never seen this before.

 Zauper 02-16-2011 01:37 PM

This goes back to the central issue: you're rewarding players for not playing full seasons.

Is 77 points in 67 games (94.2p pace) better than 94 points in 82 games? (Malkin last year vs MSL)

But you're not even assuming that a player has to have played half the season. Though you do assume that the person you're comparing them to has to -- why? They could still be way off of the actual top performers in a given year. What about Forsberg in 07-08? He played 9 games and put up 14 points. Why are we rewarding him for that, exactly?

Then what are you using to determine the top PPG ratios? I've noticed that Ovechkin, who has finished t5 in scoring in 4 of his 5 years in the league only has three years worth of numbers. Which means your argument is that in spite of him finishing in the top 5 in whichever year you're including -- not bothering to check PPGs -- he wasn't on a t5 finish pace. Even though I doubt whoever you're replacing him with finished in the top 10 or even the top 15.

I'm sure the same problem occurs with several other people in other seasons, as well.

This is fascinating.

Surprised to see Maurice Richard so high, considering he never won an Art Ross (but was 2nd 5 times). I guess things just didn't fall right for him in any particular season.

Johnny Bucyk's numbers really drive home his reputation - never a game breaker, but among the game's very good for a long time. Seems like you could count on him being an 11-20 scorer on a regular basis.

Surprised to see Frank Mahovlich with a big disconnect between "top 10" and "top 20" pace. I always thought of him as truly elite performer, rather than an "almost elite for a long time" guy. I guess he gets extra credit for playing in Toronto's defensive system and then producing big numbers in the playoffs.

I'm actually really surprised to see Ron Francis not even on the list of "top 20" finishes. Does this really drive home just how non-elite his offense was at any given time?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zauper (Post 30973570) This goes back to the central issue: you're rewarding players for not playing full seasons. Is 77 points in 67 games (94.2p pace) better than 94 points in 82 games? (Malkin last year vs MSL) But you're not even assuming that a player has to have played half the season. Though you do assume that the person you're comparing them to has to -- why? They could still be way off of the actual top performers in a given year. What about Forsberg in 07-08? He played 9 games and put up 14 points. Why are we rewarding him for that, exactly? Then what are you using to determine the top PPG ratios? I've noticed that Ovechkin, who has finished t5 in scoring in 4 of his 5 years in the league only has two years worth of numbers. Which means your argument is that in spite of him finishing in the top 5 in whichever year you're including -- not bothering to check PPGs -- he wasn't on a t5 finish pace. Even though I doubt whoever you're replacing him with finished in the top 10 or even the top 15. I'm sure the same problem occurs with several other people in other seasons, as well.
Good point.

I think this is a fascinating idea, but you definitely need to remove guys who played less than a certain number of games. No reason for Forsberg's pace in 07-08 to take away from what anyone else in that season did, when he could only maintain it for 14 games.

I'm sure there are a rookie or two somewhere in there who scored at a better than PPG pace in less than 5 games.

 matnor 02-16-2011 01:55 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zauper (Post 30973570) This goes back to the central issue: you're rewarding players for not playing full seasons. Is 77 points in 67 games (94.2p pace) better than 94 points in 82 games? (Malkin last year vs MSL) But you're not even assuming that a player has to have played half the season. Though you do assume that the person you're comparing them to has to -- why? They could still be way off of the actual top performers in a given year. What about Forsberg in 07-08? He played 9 games and put up 14 points. Why are we rewarding him for that, exactly? Then what are you using to determine the top PPG ratios? I've noticed that Ovechkin, who has finished t5 in scoring in 4 of his 5 years in the league only has two years worth of numbers. Which means your argument is that in spite of him finishing in the top 5 in whichever year you're including -- not bothering to check PPGs -- he wasn't on a t5 finish pace. Even though I doubt whoever you're replacing him with finished in the top 10 or even the top 15. I'm sure the same problem occurs with several other people in other seasons, as well.
As for your first question. Martin St. Louis would get credited with 82 games and Malkin with 67 games. So Malkin does not get credit for a full season but instead only for the games he did play. The same with Forsberg, he would get credit with 9 games in 07/08, which is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Finally, I just spotted an error in my code which meant players who scored exactly at a top-5 pace were not included. Therefore, Ovehckin's first season where he had the 5th highest ppg should be included. I'll update the tables.

 Hawkey Town 18 02-16-2011 01:55 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zauper (Post 30973570) Then what are you using to determine the top PPG ratios? I've noticed that Ovechkin, who has finished t5 in scoring in 4 of his 5 years in the league only has two years worth of numbers. Which means your argument is that in spite of him finishing in the top 5 in whichever year you're including.
While this post is slightly inaccurate (Ovechkin is given credit for 233 games, which is 3 seasons worth, not 2), it does bring up a good point. Why isn't Ovechkin being given top 5 credit for the 05'-06' season? According to hockeyreference.com he finished 5th in PPG that year.

EDIT: You beat me to it. Question Answered in the post above.

 Hawkey Town 18 02-16-2011 02:00 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 30973677) Good point. I think this is a fascinating idea, but you definitely need to remove guys who played less than a certain number of games. No reason for Forsberg's pace in 07-08 to take away from what anyone else in that season did, when he could only maintain it for 14 games. I'm sure there are a rookie or two somewhere in there who scored at a better than PPG pace in less than 5 games.
I don't think Forsberg takes away from anyone with the way this is set up. The Top 5 pace is determined by a guy who played half the games, so Forsberg does not factor in. He just gets credit for his 14 games. Theoretically, it is possible for 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. guys to get credited with a Top 5 pace if many of them played less than half the games.

 matnor 02-16-2011 02:06 PM

Quote:
 I don't think Forsberg takes away from anyone with the way this is set up. The Top 5 pace is determined by a guy who played half the games, so Forsberg does not factor in. He just gets credit for his 14 games. Theoretically, it is possible for 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. guys to get credited with a Top 5 pace if many of them played less than half the games.
Exactly, Forsberg gets credit for 9 games but he doesn't count when calculating who the player with the fifth highest scoring pace was. There is a slight problem with regression-to-the-mean for players with few games. This is especially problematic for the earlier era since those games have higher weights but I don't know how to get around that problem.

 matnor 02-16-2011 02:08 PM

Updated original post with (hopefully) correct tables.

 Zauper 02-16-2011 02:12 PM

Quote:
 As for your first question. Martin St. Louis would get credited with 82 games and Malkin with 67 games.
In a world where MSL was 6th in PPG pace and Malkin 5th (or 11th and 10th), MSL wouldn't be credited with top5/top10 pace, according to your methodology since because Malkin played over 50% of the games in the season he is included in the pace calculation. Thus because he scored at a slightly higher pace (.2 PPG), he would be ranked above MSL in spite of (IMO) having an inferior season. Here's a better example, perhaps:
In 07-08, Mike Richards had 75p in 73GP. Kovalev had 84P in 82GP. Richards is the cutoff for 20th in PPG (of people who played over 50% of the season), which means Kovalev doesn't get any credit under your system. Is Richards season really better than Kovalevs?
Is Spezza's 06-07 season really better than Heatley's? 67GP-87P vs 82GP-105P. That's the cutoff for 5-6 in PPG.

Personally? I'd rather have the player that plays an extra 10-15 games over the player that would give me one or two (or even only a fraction of one) more point(s) if they had played those games.
Quote:
 So Malkin does not get credit for a full season but instead only for the games he did play. The same with Forsberg, he would get credit with 9 games in 07/08, which is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Yes, but Malkin also pushes down the people who had better seasons than him but less PPG. The same with Forsberg? Or is he excluded from pushing people down because he only played 9 games? In either case; giving him 9 games worth of credit because he only played 9 games in a season, though at a high level, seems off to me.
Quote:
 Finally, I just spotted an error in my code which meant players who scored exactly at a top-5 pace were not included. Therefore, Ovehckin's first season where he had the 5th highest ppg should be included. I'll update the tables
Gotcha. Wonder if that moves anyone else. It should since presumably it meant every player to ever be #5 in PPG would have that season excluded.

 JackSlater 02-16-2011 02:15 PM

Very good stuff. I like that it shows that Lindros was more dominant than most give him credit for. I agree with the idea that players below a certain games played threshold (I would set it maybe around 20 games personally) should not impact the finishes of other players though. I would not remove those games from the injured player's totals though.

 matnor 02-16-2011 02:15 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 30973577) I'm actually really surprised to see Ron Francis not even on the list of "top 20" finishes. Does this really drive home just how non-elite his offense was at any given time?
Francis numbers are 152/287/688. Obviously, his best seasons were with Jagr (and Lemieux on the PP) so you have to take his elite numbers with a pinch of salt.

 matnor 02-16-2011 02:22 PM

Quote:
 Very good stuff. I like that it shows that Lindros was more dominant than most give him credit for. I agree with the idea that players below a certain games played threshold (I would set it maybe around 20 games personally) should not impact the finishes of other players though. I would not remove those games from the injured player's totals though.
That's exactly how I thought. The limit I set such that a player is required to have played at least half the season in order to affect the threshold but the games the players played still count for that particular player (see Forsberg in 03/04 and 07/08, Kariya in 97/98, Lemieux in 90/91, 93/94, 01/02 etc.)

 pluppe 02-16-2011 02:24 PM

this is very good stuff.:handclap:

I would be very interested to see top-1, 2 and 3 finishes as well as I think that would paint an interesting picture of absolute peak. If you ever get the time of course.:)

 matnor 02-16-2011 02:30 PM

Quote:
 In a world where MSL was 6th in PPG pace and Malkin 5th (or 11th and 10th), MSL wouldn't be credited with top5/top10 pace, according to your methodology since because Malkin played over 50% of the games in the season he is included in the pace calculation. Thus because he scored at a slightly higher pace (.2 PPG), he would be ranked above MSL in spite of (IMO) having an inferior season. Here's a better example, perhaps: In 07-08, Mike Richards had 75p in 73GP. Kovalev had 84P in 82GP. Richards is the cutoff for 20th in PPG (of people who played over 50% of the season), which means Kovalev doesn't get any credit under your system. Is Richards season really better than Kovalevs? Is Spezza's 06-07 season really better than Heatley's? 67GP-87P vs 82GP-105P. That's the cutoff for 5-6 in PPG. Personally? I'd rather have the player that plays an extra 10-15 games over the player that would give me one or two (or even only a fraction of one) more point(s) if they had played those games.
I see your point but I don't really know how to correct for that. It only affects players right on the margin though. I could possibly raise the required number of games played to affect the threshold to be as high as 70-75 games (on a 82-game schedule).

Quote:
 Yes, but Malkin also pushes down the people who had better seasons than him but less PPG. The same with Forsberg? Or is he excluded from pushing people down because he only played 9 games? In either case; giving him 9 games worth of credit because he only played 9 games in a season, though at a high level, seems off to me.
Forsberg would not affect the threshold since he didn't play half the games. And 9 games is 9 games so I think he should get credit for that.

Quote:
 Gotcha. Wonder if that moves anyone else. It should since presumably it meant every player to ever be #5 in PPG would have that season excluded.
Yes, it moved a lot of players around.

 matnor 02-16-2011 02:50 PM

Quote:
 this is very good stuff. I would be very interested to see top-1, 2 and 3 finishes as well as I think that would paint an interesting picture of absolute peak. If you ever get the time of course.
I think one should be careful in interpreting number of games played at top-1, 2 and 3-pace since there would be high variance in such numbers where players who were injured often might be favored in a regression-to-the-mean sense. Also, players playing at the same time as Gretzky, Howe etc would have it real hard to be number 1. But, since you asked nicely, here's the numbers :):

Top 50 in games played scoring at a top-1 pace:

 Player GP at top-1 pace 1. Wayne Gretzky 872 2. Gordie Howe 567 3. Mario Lemieux 497 4. Phil Esposito 406 5. Stan Mikita 326 6. Bill Cowley 274 7. Guy Lafleur 234 8. Alex Ovechkin 233 9. Jean Beliveau 231 10. Joe Malone 225 11. Jaromir Jagr 221 12. Sweeney Schriner 164 13. Bill Cook 164 14. Elmer Lach 164 15. Max Bentley 159 16. Bobby Hull 158 17. Howie Morenz 153 18. Charlie Conacher 152 19. Peter Forsberg 123 20. Maurice Richard 111 21. Bobby Orr 92 22. Bryan Hextall 82 23. Busher Jackson 82 24. Ace Bailey 82 25. Andy Bathgate 82 26. Nels Stewart 82 27. Cooney Weiland 82 28. Punch Broadbent 82 29. Gordie Drillon 82 30. Joe Thornton 81 31. Ted Lindsay 81 32. Doug Bentley 79 33. Sidney Crosby 79 34. Eric Lindros 79 35. Bryan Trottier 78 36. Bobby Clarke 78 37. Newsy Lalonde 77 38. Babe Dye 75 39. Bernie Geoffrion 75 40. Todd Bertuzzi 72 41. Georges Boucher 72 42. Aurel Joliat 68 43. Syl Apps 46 44. Marc Savard 45 45. Ziggy Palffy 35 46. Jack McGill 22 47. Paul Kariya 22 48. Bill Mosienko 21 49. Mike Walton 10 50. Leth Graham 3 51. Eddie Wares 3 52. Kamil Piros 3 53. Bobby Bauer 3

Top 50 in games played scoring at a top-2 pace:

 Player GP at top-2 pace 1. Wayne Gretzky 1103 2. Mario Lemieux 788 3. Gordie Howe 649 4. Jaromir Jagr 548 5. Jean Beliveau 536 6. Phil Esposito 488 7. Maurice Richard 424 8. Stan Mikita 402 9. Bobby Orr 400 10. Bobby Hull 397 11. Cy Denneny 389 12. Marcel Dionne 328 13. Guy Lafleur 316 14. Charlie Conacher 296 15. Bernie Geoffrion 289 16. Bill Cowley 274 17. Ted Lindsay 245 18. Newsy Lalonde 238 19. Max Bentley 236 20. Busher Jackson 236 21. Alex Ovechkin 233 22. Joe Malone 225 23. Dickie Moore 203 24. Syl Apps 196 25. Peter Forsberg 195 26. Bill Cook 164 27. Elmer Lach 164 28. Nels Stewart 164 29. Sweeney Schriner 164 30. Joe Thornton 163 31. Andy Bathgate 158 32. Bryan Trottier 157 33. Babe Dye 154 34. Howie Morenz 153 35. Aurel Joliat 150 36. Jari Kurri 140 37. Sidney Crosby 132 38. Eric Lindros 131 39. Bill Mosienko 86 40. Norm Ullman 82 41. Bryan Hextall 82 42. Mike Bossy 82 43. Pat LaFontaine 82 44. Ace Bailey 82 45. Roy Conacher 82 46. Punch Broadbent 82 47. Milt Schmidt 82 48. Martin St. Louis 82 49. Cooney Weiland 82 50. Evgeni Malkin 82 51. Jarome Iginla 82 52. Henrik Sedin 82 53. Buddy O'Connor 82 54. Toe Blake 82 55. Gordie Drillon 82

Top 50 in games played scoring at a top-3 pace:

 Player GP at top-3 pace 1. Wayne Gretzky 1103 2. Gordie Howe 895 3. Mario Lemieux 815 4. Stan Mikita 706 5. Jean Beliveau 700 6. Jaromir Jagr 680 7. Phil Esposito 651 8. Maurice Richard 588 9. Bobby Orr 480 10. Guy Lafleur 474 11. Bobby Hull 469 12. Cy Denneny 468 13. Babe Dye 460 14. Ted Lindsay 395 15. Doug Bentley 373 16. Charlie Conacher 371 17. Bernie Geoffrion 358 18. Marcel Dionne 328 19. Andy Bathgate 322 20. Busher Jackson 301 21. Newsy Lalonde 290 22. Sweeney Schriner 289 23. Syl Apps 278 24. Bill Cowley 274 25. Dickie Moore 269 26. Eric Lindros 267 27. Elmer Lach 246 28. Joe Thornton 240 29. Max Bentley 236 30. Alex Ovechkin 233 31. Howie Morenz 231 32. Joe Malone 225 33. Joe Sakic 215 34. Sidney Crosby 209 35. Peter Forsberg 195 36. Bill Cook 164 37. Evgeni Malkin 164 38. Nels Stewart 164 39. Denis Savard 162 40. Norm Ullman 162 41. Frank Nighbor 161 42. Larry Aurie 161 43. Mark Messier 160 44. Paul Thompson 159 45. Peter Stastny 159 46. Bryan Trottier 157 47. Joe Primeau 155 48. Milt Schmidt 155 49. Gordie Drillon 154 50. Jarome Iginla 152

 ushvinder 02-16-2011 03:43 PM

Surpised to see bathgate and dionne so high on that list, especially when you consider that they were competing against howe and gretzky respectively.

Yeah, the fact that Richard goes from 20th in Top 1 finishes to 7th in Top 2 finishes shows that they probably aren't a very meaningful metric. (Just the first example I saw).

I do find the top 5, 10, and 20 metrics interesting.

 Zauper 02-16-2011 04:10 PM

I believe that top1 finishes largely is a lot like looking at the Art Ross winners, with few exceptions due to injuries, but in most cases they're injuries that only prevented an art ross finish (still finished high in points in a given year).

But yeah, the 1/2/3 metric probably have limited meaning themselves.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ushvinder (Post 30975098) Surpised to see bathgate and dionne so high on that list, especially when you consider that they were competing against howe and gretzky respectively.
Bathgate and Dionne were absolutely dominant regular season offensive players. Their downsides are very similar - neither played a lick of defense, and both have serious question marks about their playoff resumes (Dionne moreso on the second one).

 seventieslord 02-16-2011 04:16 PM

very interesting stuff!

 WilliamRanford 02-16-2011 04:30 PM

This is a very cool idea.

One possible way to express this data would be to show what percentage of their normalized careers they played at a top-5, top 10, etc pace. Howe played much longer than Gretzky, so you'd expect his absolute number to be higher. But it Gretz played 78% of his career at a top 5 pace while Howe played 72% at a top 5 pace, that would be the paydirt, IMO.

Thoughts?

 SidGenoMario 02-16-2011 04:31 PM

Shows how godly Malkin can/should be. :(

 ushvinder 02-16-2011 04:32 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 30975873) Bathgate and Dionne were absolutely dominant regular season offensive players. Their downsides are very similar - neither played a lick of defense, and both have serious question marks about their playoff resumes (Dionne moreso on the second one).
Yeah i know thier downsides, i just didnt expect them to rank so high on these lists, dionne was no defensive wizard but he was gritty and could get his nose dirty, its not like he's pierre turgeon.

Bathgate played on the worst team in the o-6, not much of an opportunity to develop a playoff resume.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16 PM.