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-   -   Who wins: Montreal or LA? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=87884)

Peter 06-30-2004 11:03 AM

Who wins: Montreal or LA?
 
Now that the Bonk/Garon trade is few days older I thought I would add my two cents worth. For what it's worth (which is probably just that - two cents :) ) I think Montreal comes out a little worser for the wear.

LA gets a, IMO, bonafide #1 goalie who couldn't get playing time because of who he was behind in Montreal. Montreal gets a for sure third line defensive center who 'might' be able to hand 2nd line duty and play with Koivu. I think Montreal is taking the bigger risk as well as salary. Now, having Huet come back helps to even the trade a bit BUT still, IMO, LA wins the deal hands-down.

Owen Wilson 06-30-2004 11:05 AM

Habs traded a strength for a need, simple as that

417 06-30-2004 11:38 AM

I can't understand how Montreal loses in this deal? It's no secret that Montreal is a small team, especially down the middle, when your biggest center is Mike Ribeiro who is 6"1 and 175lbs (barely) and your in the eastern conference going against centers like Sundin, Primeau, Roenick, Handzus, Nieuwendyk etc, you need to have a bige center to match up vs. these guys or Koivu and Ribeiro will just wear out over the course of the year...

Sure Radek Bonk makes 3.5 mil, who says Bob Gainey won't qualify him at 3.5 and then sign him to an extention and the second year is at 1.5 mil :dunno: who knows? maybe the Kings and the Habs worked out a deal where the Kings are picking up a portion of the salary, it's quite possible as we would not be privy to that information anyway...

Point is both the Kings and the Habs come out winners in this deal, Garon as good as he is and as good as he can be, is still a backup in Montreal, there's too much money invested in Theodore and he's got way more experience as a #1 goalie, Garon was not going to get his chance in Montreal inthe next 2 years no matter how good he is, the Habs made a commitement to Theodore when they signed him 2 years ago, and they're sticking by it...

What Bob Gainey did was take one of his biggest strengths in the organization goaltending (Theodore, Garon, Damphousse, Fichaud, Danis and Michaud all in NA) and he flipped it to address the biggest weakness in the organization and he addressed both with Bonk and with the draftpick Chipchura, cause if you have a look at the Habs organizational depth chart, there is no big physical, 2 way center in NA or in Europe, so Bob Gainey filled those two glaring needs in 1 day and all he gave up was a backup goalie ( a very good one, but a backup nonetheless) and a 3rd round pick...

If that's not brilliant general managing, than someone please tell me otherwise :dunno:

Jeffrey 06-30-2004 11:40 AM

Garon would improve drasticaly LA ..watch out for the kings next year because they will kick ass big time !!

Peter 06-30-2004 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
IIf that's not brilliant general managing, than someone please tell me otherwise :dunno:

So getting a soft center, that makes lots of money, and has done almost nothing statistically in the last three years...and getting him for a bona-fide #1 goalie...that's brilliant general managing???

What do you guys like so much about Bonk? What does Gainey know that the Sens hadn't figured out??

Listen, the old adage is whoever gets the best player wins the trade and hands-down LA gets the best player.

Old Hickory 06-30-2004 11:43 AM

We can speculate all we want, but no one really knows the answer for about 3 years. Garon could blossom and become the most dominant goalie in the league. Huet could blossom and become the most dominant goalie in the league. This trade could have been the wake up call Bonk needed and he could become a dominant player.

Short term, all 3 teams won.
Ottawa got a pick for something they were going to throw away
MTL got a center
LA upgraded the goaltending, which was needed big time

Thomas 06-30-2004 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
So getting a soft center, that makes lots of money, and has done almost nothing statistically in the last three years...and getting him for a bona-fide #1 goalie...that's brilliant general managing???

What do you guys like so much about Bonk? What does Gainey know that the Sens hadn't figured out??

Listen, the old adage is whoever gets the best player wins the trade and hands-down LA gets the best player.

How is Garon a bonafied #1 goalie? At 26 years of age he has only played 43 games in the NHL. The most games he has played in a season is 19 and that was this year. I think he could become a #1 goalie, though who knows how well he would do over a whole season.

It's amazing how earlier in the year Garon had no value because nobody claimed him from waivers a season earlier, and now that he was moved for Montreal's biggest need hes a "bonafied #1 goalie".

The value of goalies has been pretty poor as of late (Cechmanek, Giguere and Kiprusoff going for 2nds, Lalime went for a 4th), there are a lot of quality goaltenders around, and I'm pleased with getting Bonk for Garon, he was after all our back up goalie. Gainey dealt a strength for a need, and I dont see whats wrong with that.

hattrick74 06-30-2004 11:50 AM

until bonk is qualifed i wouldnt say the MTL did good, but if (and when) he is qualifed then, like many others said, all three teams filled a need

417 06-30-2004 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
So getting a soft center, that makes lots of money, and has done almost nothing statistically in the last three years...and getting him for a bona-fide #1 goalie...that's brilliant general managing???

What do you guys like so much about Bonk? What does Gainey know that the Sens hadn't figured out??

Listen, the old adage is whoever gets the best player wins the trade and hands-down LA gets the best player.

:lol a bonafide #1 goalie...a career backup goalie who gets traded to another team where there is already another #1 goalie all of a sudden becomes a bonafide #1 goalie :lol that's an oxy-moron if i've ever heard one...how does that make sense...

And your telling me that a #3 center, cause that's what he's going to be in Montreal, who gets 168 points in 218 games over the last 3 years, has done nothing statiscally? where are you getting this info from?

And as for the salry part, he is expensive but not for Montreal, where they've lacked a big center for years, and big center aren't exactly an easy thing to trade for/sign, so anyways you look at it, the Habs would have to pay a premium to acquire such a player, and how do you know the Habs won't resign him to a cheaper deal after qualifying him...I understand that for certain teams, acquiring a guy like Bonk would be pointless, but for the small, smurfish Montreal Canadiens, it was a great acquisition, and again, a stroke of genius by Bob Gainey, you gotta love trading a player you barely use for a player that can more than adequately replace him and another player who fills your biggest need

In Montreal, unlike Ottawa, he won't be asked to pivot the 1st line, he'll settle in as the 3rd line center, and if you know anything about the Habs, the 3rd line generally gets the most icetime, and he won't have th pressure of having to score all the time, in addition, he'll help push Ribeiro along and make sure he's always on his toes, not to mention that Bonk is a great insurance policy in case Ribeiro or the oft injured Saku Koivu goes down...you guys in Vancouver could probably use a guy like Bonk so I don't know where your coming from...

417 06-30-2004 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hattrick74
until bonk is qualifed i wouldnt say the MTL did good, but if (and when) he is qualifed then, like many others said, all three teams filled a need

He obviously will be qualified, why would they make a trade for a goalie of Garon's potential and not want to qualify him???????

that dosen't make sense, if they traded for him, it's obviously because they want him and are going to qualify him, this isn't one of those Leetch to the Oilers deals that you get around this time... :shakehead

GoneFullHextall 06-30-2004 12:05 PM

Montreal gets an overrated player, a decent backup in Huet
LA gets a really good young goaltender and a draft pick

advantage=LA

Peter 06-30-2004 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
:lol a bonafide #1 goalie...a career backup goalie who gets traded to another team where there is already another #1 goalie all of a sudden becomes a bonafide #1 goalie :lol that's an oxy-moron if i've ever heard one...how does that make sense...

And your telling me that a #3 center, cause that's what he's going to be in Montreal, who gets 168 points in 218 games over the last 3 years, has done nothing statiscally? where are you getting this info from?

And as for the salry part, he is expensive but not for Montreal, where they've lacked a big center for years, and big center aren't exactly an easy thing to trade for/sign, so anyways you look at it, the Habs would have to pay a premium to acquire such a player, and how do you know the Habs won't resign him to a cheaper deal after qualifying him...I understand that for certain teams, acquiring a guy like Bonk would be pointless, but for the small, smurfish Montreal Canadiens, it was a great acquisition, and again, a stroke of genius by Bob Gainey, you gotta love trading a player you barely use for a player that can more than adequately replace him and another player who fills your biggest need

In Montreal, unlike Ottawa, he won't be asked to pivot the 1st line, he'll settle in as the 3rd line center, and if you know anything about the Habs, the 3rd line generally gets the most icetime, and he won't have th pressure of having to score all the time, in addition, he'll help push Ribeiro along and make sure he's always on his toes, not to mention that Bonk is a great insurance policy in case Ribeiro or the oft injured Saku Koivu goes down...you guys in Vancouver could probably use a guy like Bonk so I don't know where your coming from...

Bonk is just another player in a long, long line of players that Montreal has acquired (from teams that no longer value them), fans get so excited they shoot their wads, and then a year later the fans are crying for that player's head....I have been on this merry-go-round before and it will continue to happen in Montreal.

Bonk is done. He has nothing left. If a talented team like the Sens couldn't use him then how in the name of all that is good could the Canadiens get anything more out of him.

As for Garon, heh, even Bob McKenzie calls Garon a #1 goalie. Not that he has been playing as a number one because obviously he hasn't but that his skills make him a #1 goalie.

417 06-30-2004 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClarkeMustGoDotCom
Montreal gets an overrated player, a decent backup in Huet
LA gets a really good young goaltender and a draft pick

advantage=LA

Maybe Bonk is overrated, but that's because HE WAS ASKED TO CENTER THE 1ST LINE IN OTTAWA, HE IS NOT A #1 CENTER, but if your a Montreal Canadiens fans, you have to like that he's not even going to be our #2 center, he'll settle in on the 3rd line...if Radek Bonk is overrated, it's because fans put unrealistic expectations on him, but he won't be asked to do that in Montreal, they're just expecting him to match up vs. the other teams top lines, provide a consistent body presence on the boards and in the slot as well as chipping in on offense and palying a big role on special teams...

if you think that Bonk is a #1 center, than I can understand why you call him overrated, but if you have any hockey knowledge at all, you'll understand that Bonk is a good 2nd line center and a great 3rd line center...

417 06-30-2004 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
Bonk is just another player in a long, long line of players that Montreal has acquired (from teams that no longer value them), fans get so excited they shoot their wads, and then a year later the fans are crying for that player's head....I have been on this merry-go-round before and it will continue to happen in Montreal.

Bonk is done. He has nothing left. If a talented team like the Sens couldn't use him then how in the name of all that is good could the Canadiens get anything more out of him.

As for Garon, heh, even Bob McKenzie calls Garon a #1 goalie. Not that he has been playing as a number one because obviously he hasn't but that his skills make him a #1 goalie.

Bonk is 28 yrs old, how can he be finished, jeez, he'd be considered a fresh rookie in Toronto...He no longer fit into the Sens plans, dosen't mean that he no longer has value, trust me, if Bonk makes 1 million less a year, teams would of been all over him, the thing is, if fans in Montreal are expecting this guy to come in a score 30 goals and put up 40 assist, than yes, they will be dissapointed, but if they understand that he's coming to free up space for Koivu and Ribeiro than they will love him, i'll be part of the second group that knows NHL players talents and limitations

LesCanadiens 06-30-2004 12:31 PM

I see some of the old Hab bashers are still at it. Face it boys, the Habs are back and its pissing you guys off.

Now, lets talk some facts and clear-up a few fantasies and urban myths.

1. Garon is NOT a bona-fide #1 and at his age he is no longer a prospect. What he is is a crap-shoot. He has some solid natural talent - but even in his 40 some-odd pro starts he has been inconsistent.

2. Bonk does not have weak stats. By saying that it proves that you did zero research - and imo are just Hab-bashing. Bonks stats ever the last 2 years: http://www.hockey-stats.com/players/radek_bonk.shtml . On top of that he has been a good shut-down guy - always playing againsts the oppositions top centres

On top of that we receive a goalie who is reasonably young and last year played almost as many games as Garon has played lifretime....and by all accounts he carried himself well.

And as far as salary goes, 3.5 isn't gaudy. Especially when you look around and see guys like Lapointe at 5 mil and Holik at 9 mil. At least Bonk at 3.5 can help us out in many areas - PP, 5 on 5 and defensively.

Guriken 06-30-2004 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
Bonk is just another player in a long, long line of players that Montreal has acquired (from teams that no longer value them), fans get so excited they shoot their wads, and then a year later the fans are crying for that player's head....I have been on this merry-go-round before and it will continue to happen in Montreal.

Bonk is done. He has nothing left. If a talented team like the Sens couldn't use him then how in the name of all that is good could the Canadiens get anything more out of him.

As for Garon, heh, even Bob McKenzie calls Garon a #1 goalie. Not that he has been playing as a number one because obviously he hasn't but that his skills make him a #1 goalie.

I think the deal is fair for now, but in a couple of years we will have to say that it is Los Angeles who won the deal. Garon (26 years old) who has a lot of potential and a 3rd round selection which can be a good player will stay longer for their team and will certainly surpass the two years (maybe 3? :P ) and gone of Radek Bonk and Christobal Huet.

Anyway, I'm happy we have acquired Radek bonk... I just hope he will score around 50 points and that he'll not just play a defensive role like Joe Juneau was doing these past years.

Traitor8 06-30-2004 12:52 PM

Both team win.

La trades an asset they just acquired for an asset that is truly needed..a POTENTIEL #1 goalie.

Montreal trades an asset that only playes 19 G a year for them for an asset who is considered as the team's biggest need the past 4 years.

Both teams come out happy.

TwineSniper 06-30-2004 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habdul
I see some of the old Hab bashers are still at it. Face it boys, the Habs are back and its pissing you guys off.

Now, lets talk some facts and clear-up a few fantasies and urban myths.

1. Garon is NOT a bona-fide #1 and at his age he is no longer a prospect. What he is is a crap-shoot. He has some solid natural talent - but even in his 40 some-odd pro starts he has been inconsistent.

2. Bonk does not have weak stats. By saying that it proves that you did zero research - and imo are just Hab-bashing. Bonks stats ever the last 2 years: http://www.hockey-stats.com/players/radek_bonk.shtml . On top of that he has been a good shut-down guy - always playing againsts the oppositions top centres

On top of that we receive a goalie who is reasonably young and last year played almost as many games as Garon has played lifretime....and by all accounts he carried himself well.

And as far as salary goes, 3.5 isn't gaudy. Especially when you look around and see guys like Lapointe at 5 mil and Holik at 9 mil. At least Bonk at 3.5 can help us out in many areas - PP, 5 on 5 and defensively.



My vote for "Best post of the thread" goes to...


Brilliant, exactly what I was thinking.

montreal 06-30-2004 01:05 PM

LA wins easily. Habs add 3M in salary, downgrade their overall goaltending position, although they do add Bonk who's coming off a poor season and while big not physical, or intense. If Bonk can get back his former 20-23 goal seasons, then Hab fans can overlook his often lazy or lackluster performances at times, imo.

But I'm one of the Hab fans who isn't all that impressed by Bonk or Huet but very impressed by Garon. I think Garon will be a great goalie in a few years.

Then there's the 95th overall pick. I know it's not a great pick, but there was still something of value left at that time, so we'll see how their pick turns out down the road, but you also have to add that the Habs may have gotten a solid prospect at 95th, with the scouting team of Savard/Timmins who had shown a lot of success with scouting players.

Malefic74 06-30-2004 01:21 PM

I like the deal. If you look at the trade long term than LA wins (likely), short term it's a win for Montreal.

Lalime is a starter for a playoff team and he fetches a 4th round pick. Garon is a back-up with potential and he fetches Radek Bonk, an experienced two way centre with size and decent hands.

Compared to Muckler, Gainey looks awful good there.

Watching Huet last season I was pretty impressed. He clearly outplayed Cechmanek for streches last season, and seems to have a good mental toughness to come off the bench. Plus he proved he can handle the load if the starter gets hurt. He plays solid position and isn't prone to soft goals.

Garon is a fast solid butterfly goalie who can cover a lot of net. While he will make more spectacular saves than Huet, he is still prone to the occasional softie. Garon's biggest problem is his rebounds. He still fights with them often.

Between the two right now it's a wash. If Garon gets his rebounds under control and learns to concentrate a little more, LA wins that deal. If.

The fact is Garon has been a bargaining chip for most of the past season and a half. Once Theodore signed his deal, and once he regained his game-stealing form it was pretty much a done deal Garon would move. The Habs do have a solid goaltending farm in Hamilton and have had little or no trouble developping talent at that position. LA meanwhile hasn't develloped a decent goalie since... well ever really. Their two best Vachon and Hrudey came from Montreal and the Islanders.

As people said upthread strength for strength and need for need. Forward help and NHL tested backup now for potential #1 later.

Beukeboom Fan 06-30-2004 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
So getting a soft center, that makes lots of money, and has done almost nothing statistically in the last three years...and getting him for a bona-fide #1 goalie...that's brilliant general managing???

What do you guys like so much about Bonk? What does Gainey know that the Sens hadn't figured out??

Listen, the old adage is whoever gets the best player wins the trade and hands-down LA gets the best player.

1) What does Bonk's salary have to do with the deal? If MON is able to pay the salary, and it doesn't preclude them from making other necessary moves, what else matters?
2) Can you see the advantage of having a big, good defensive center to play against Mats Sundin or Joe Thornton instead of Ribiero or Koivu? Bonk might not be a physical force, but he very solid defensively, and until last year has scored over 60 pts/82 game season. I think he'll do much better after a change of scenery.
3) Now Garon is a bonified #1 goalie? I must of missed 100 some starts over the last 2 seasons, because it seems like he's played in less than 25 games over the last 2 seasons. BTW, I really like Garon, but in no way shape or form has he proven he's a #1 goalie. Throwing up shut-out's against the Thrashers a couple of years ago doesn't mean squat.
4) Gainey turned a guy who would likely play 25 games against the weak sisters into a player his team desperately needed. Is the guy slightly overpaid? I'd say yes, but that doesn't take anything away from what he could bring to the Habs.

Peter 06-30-2004 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malefic74
Lalime is a starter for a playoff team and he fetches a 4th round pick. Garon is a back-up with potential and he fetches Radek Bonk, an experienced two way centre with size and decent hands.

Compared to Muckler, Gainey looks awful good there.

Try comparing apples with apples will you. To say that Gainey is a better GM because he got "more" for Garon than Muckler did for Lalime is crazy and shows how little you know about the NHL.

Muckler was giving away Lalime because he has signed Hasek and need to make room for him. Muckler couldn't care less what he got for Lalime as long as he got something because he didn't want Lalime's salary nor did he want to go into the season with BOTH Lalime and Hasek under contract (ala Detroit Red Wings with Joseph and Hasek).

Montreal, on the other hand, was in no rush. Again, if you compare skill vs. potential the Kings come way ahead on this deal. Goalies take longer to develop than forwards so Garon's age is right about perfect for taking over a #1 position. And let's face it, Garon would be the #1 goalie in Montreal if you did not have Theodore. He would be the #1 goalie on a number of teams in the NHL right now: and the Kings are one of them.

Darz 06-30-2004 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
So getting a soft center, that makes lots of money, and has done almost nothing statistically in the last three years...and getting him for a bona-fide #1 goalie...that's brilliant general managing???

Do you understand what 'bona-fide' means?????

Peter 06-30-2004 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darz
Do you understand what 'bona-fide' means?????

Yes I do. Do you??

417 06-30-2004 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter
Try comparing apples with apples will you. To say that Gainey is a better GM because he got "more" for Garon than Muckler did for Lalime is crazy and shows how little you know about the NHL.

Muckler was giving away Lalime because he has signed Hasek and need to make room for him. Muckler couldn't care less what he got for Lalime as long as he got something because he didn't want Lalime's salary nor did he want to go into the season with BOTH Lalime and Hasek under contract (ala Detroit Red Wings with Joseph and Hasek).

Montreal, on the other hand, was in no rush. Again, if you compare skill vs. potential the Kings come way ahead on this deal. Goalies take longer to develop than forwards so Garon's age is right about perfect for taking over a #1 position. And let's face it, Garon would be the #1 goalie in Montreal if you did not have Theodore. He would be the #1 goalie on a number of teams in the NHL right now: and the Kings are one of them.

That's the thing, the Habs already have a #1 goaltender, you remember that guy that won the Hart and Vezina trophy 2 years ago, a guy that's making 6 mil a year...why would they hold on to Garon who if he dosen't start to play soon, his skills will deteriorate, which means he'll decrease in value...L.A. acquired Bonk = Habs needs big center...L.A. in a mini-rebuliding phase needs young goalie with a high potential...Habs have an asset which L.A. has been coveting...L.A. now has asset that the Habs have been coveting = Radek Bonk and Cristobal Huet for Mathieu Garon and 3rd round pick....get it?

IMO the fact that Bob Gainey was able to also acquire a better than average back up goalie is just icing on the cake.... :bow:


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