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-   -   Zherdev/Carcillo/Shelley (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=878918)

TH1Pool 02-16-2011 10:58 PM

Zherdev/Carcillo/Shelley
 
I apologize if this is a tired subject, but I see the long standing Zherdev thread is locked due to arguing.

I have a serious inquiry as to what the logic is behind playing Betts, Powe, Carcillo, and Shelley all in the same game, while benching Zherdev. Why is Zherdev in the dog house? He was atop the team in goals scored with a fraction of the games played, and he has a positive plus minus.

How are Jody Shelley and Carcillo, both playing minimal minutes, having hardly a noticeable physical presence, and pretty much guaranteed not to generate offense, more valuable than Zherdev? Even if he were to play the same number of minutes as Shelley in his place, what do Shelley and Carcillo both do that the other can't? Why not use 3 legitimate scoring lines and a 4th checking line of Powe Betts and Shelley/Carcillo?

I feel like I know hockey, I've played all my life up to the collegiate level, but there has to be something I am missing here. I honestly get so irritated each game when the line ups are announced and there is no Zherdev. Tonight especially irritated me. Replacing Leino, a skilled forward similar to Zherdev, with Shelley rather than Zherdev?? Why??

I don't mean to stir up the pot, if someone could just offer constructive insight on this question only, I would really appreciate it.

whatthef 02-16-2011 11:01 PM

Pretty much I agree with what you're saying. None of Nodl, Carcillo, or Shelley belong in the top 9. The occasional benching or scratching of Zherdev might be needed/used, but in general he should be in the line up. The vast majority of things Lavi does with I'm very much in agreement with, but some of the Zherdev stuff confuses me.

captainpaxil 02-16-2011 11:05 PM

his first year back in the nhl and on the team. theyre treating him like a rookie. do what the coach wants or sit. z is an overconfidant player who needs to be reigned in without crushing his creativity. its probably better for him to sit than play fourth line. and the coach seems to really dig nodl

Snipsnap12 02-16-2011 11:08 PM

while I agree that zherdev should be in the lineup most of the games, especially with leino going down tonight, but I just dont see the point in debate anymore.... everyone is beating a dead horse.

Lavy obviously does not like the way zherdev plays and his tenure with the team is probably coming to an end. Tonight showed that he just does not want to play him anymore, and certainly if he is not playing him now he wont be playing in the playoffs. On this note I would mind seeing wellwood called up and be given a chance to see what he can bring over carcillo

RoDu 02-16-2011 11:11 PM

http://jackdempsey.me/beet/beet.jpg
http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/chr.../plus-icon.png
http://evilnature.com/w_deadhorse.jpg

dingbathero 02-16-2011 11:26 PM

It sort of reminds me of Stamkos first year in Tampa, the coach (Melrose I think) wouldn't let him 'play' - be who he was on the ice.

I think the very same could be said of Z and the situation, I am not saying he'd score like Stamkos but he CAN score more than Nodl, Shelley and Carcillo combined... It makes me wonder WTF they are thinking.

I do also think that if he were in the lineup, other defenses would HAVE to pay attention to him while he is on the ice opening up more room for his line mates. Thus, creating MORE offence.

sa cyred 02-16-2011 11:53 PM

Lazy doesnt like lazy players, no matter how many goals they can score. You dont play defense and as a team, your sitting in the press box. And you know what? I agree with that.

DrinkFightFlyers 02-17-2011 12:02 AM

Meh. As long as the W's keep coming I don't care if Shelley is getting first line minutes and Giroux is riding the pine.

IceHot 02-17-2011 01:17 AM

he's never had an extended season
 
Maybe the strategy with N.Z. is to have a fresh hungry added body ready for playoffs instead of a beat up tired one.

StandingCow 02-17-2011 01:52 AM

Shelley being in over Z during the panthers game makes zero sense to me.

phillyflu 02-17-2011 05:32 AM

At this point, I don't think it has much to do with his game performance. He must be a real dog in practice is my guess.

Jimmy Villa 02-17-2011 06:19 AM

Baffles me too.

Especially with the addition of Steeger now (good two way guy).

Richie has been punished with poor wings all year compared to Briere or Cartz/Roo, so why is a line of Steeg/Richie/Zherdev not a good line?

You have two way players in Richie & Steeg, and Zherdev puts em up.

It's obvious the coach has a stiffy for Nodl, which is fine, but I really don't get the idea of leaving a goalscorer out of the line up. As the guys have said, Shelley in for Leino against Florida?!? :amazed:

Lavi is clearly a great coach, but I get the feeling he is putting personal opinion over what is good for the team on this thing with Zherdev.

AGAINST SKILL TEAMS
Steeg-Richie-Z
H-B-L
VR-Cartz-Roo
Betts-Pow Pow-Nodl
Shelley
Car Bomb

AGAINST PHYSICAL TEAMS
Steeg-Richie-Z
H-B-L
VR-Cartz-Roo
Betts-Pow Pow-Shelley
Nodl
Car Bomb

Come on Lavi.................:shakehead

DUHockey9 02-17-2011 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Villa (Post 30993085)
Baffles me too.

Especially with the addition of Steeger now (good two way guy).

Richie has been punished with poor wings all year compared to Briere or Cartz/Roo, so why is a line of Steeg/Richie/Zherdev not a good line?

You have two way players in Richie & Steeg, and Zherdev puts em up.

It's obvious the coach has a stiffy for Nodl, which is fine, but I really don't get the idea of leaving a goalscorer out of the line up. As the guys have said, Shelley in for Leino against Florida?!? :amazed:

Lavi is clearly a great coach, but I get the feeling he is putting personal opinion over what is good for the team on this thing with Zherdev.

AGAINST SKILL TEAMS
Steeg-Richie-Z
H-B-L
VR-Cartz-Roo
Betts-Pow Pow-Nodl
Shelley
Car Bomb

AGAINST PHYSICAL TEAMS
Steeg-Richie-Z
H-B-L
VR-Cartz-Roo
Betts-Pow Pow-Shelley
Nodl
Car Bomb

Come on Lavi.................:shakehead

I'm not really a huge Nodl fan but the guy's earned his playing time and deserves to be on the ice. Ideally he should be on the 4th line, if that means Zherdev has to sit, so be it. I like your lineup except against a physical team I swap Nodl in at Zherdev's spot. Aside from killing some offense at times, Nodl skates well, hits, and plays solid D. Those guys almost always deserve to be in the lineup.

Nodl = low risk, low reward
Zherdev = high risk, high reward

With the amount of skill on this team, we don't really need the "high reward", and therefore it's not worth the risk IMO.

Cartsiephan* 02-17-2011 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TH1Pool (Post 30989510)
I apologize if this is a tired subject, but I see the long standing Zherdev thread is locked due to arguing.

I have a serious inquiry as to what the logic is behind playing Betts, Powe, Carcillo, and Shelley all in the same game, while benching Zherdev. Why is Zherdev in the dog house? He was atop the team in goals scored with a fraction of the games played, and he has a positive plus minus.

How are Jody Shelley and Carcillo, both playing minimal minutes, having hardly a noticeable physical presence, and pretty much guaranteed not to generate offense, more valuable than Zherdev? Even if he were to play the same number of minutes as Shelley in his place, what do Shelley and Carcillo both do that the other can't? Why not use 3 legitimate scoring lines and a 4th checking line of Powe Betts and Shelley/Carcillo?

I feel like I know hockey, I've played all my life up to the collegiate level, but there has to be something I am missing here. I honestly get so irritated each game when the line ups are announced and there is no Zherdev. Tonight especially irritated me. Replacing Leino, a skilled forward similar to Zherdev, with Shelley rather than Zherdev?? Why??

I don't mean to stir up the pot, if someone could just offer constructive insight on this question only, I would really appreciate it.

If you follow his history then you would realize this has been an ongoing issue with this kid. He is offensively gifted but does not play well "in a system". I would have liked to of seen him play last night but at this point it leads me to believe that the coach has other issues with this kid, even going back to where he reportedly had gone to the GM to complain that he was not getting proper TOI.

He would be a great addition to a team like Fla or a team that is not contending where he can get his minutes, feel valued, and not odd-man out on a deep roster. I would still like to see Laviolette give him a chance to earn a spot, but if Nodl and Carcillo are getting the minutes over him my assumption would be Laviolette has a roster in mind and he is getting the guys who he is going to want playing the time on the ice.

And some point I think this theory that this kid is getting screwed, and back to the theory that he is a tough kid to coach.

Cartsiephan* 02-17-2011 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Villa (Post 30993085)
Baffles me too.

Especially with the addition of Steeger now (good two way guy).

Richie has been punished with poor wings all year compared to Briere or Cartz/Roo, so why is a line of Steeg/Richie/Zherdev not a good line?

You have two way players in Richie & Steeg, and Zherdev puts em up.

It's obvious the coach has a stiffy for Nodl, which is fine, but I really don't get the idea of leaving a goalscorer out of the line up. As the guys have said, Shelley in for Leino against Florida?!? :amazed:

Lavi is clearly a great coach, but I get the feeling he is putting personal opinion over what is good for the team on this thing with Zherdev.

AGAINST SKILL TEAMS
Steeg-Richie-Z
H-B-L
VR-Cartz-Roo
Betts-Pow Pow-Nodl
Shelley
Car Bomb

AGAINST PHYSICAL TEAMS
Steeg-Richie-Z
H-B-L
VR-Cartz-Roo
Betts-Pow Pow-Shelley
Nodl
Car Bomb

Come on Lavi.................:shakehead

Just my .02 cents, but I think Laviolette is looking at the combo of Richards-Versteeg is going to be a matchup line, not taking away from the "scoring depth" but adding a line that can stay focused to the defensive game and give the coach the ability to play matchups to his advantage, especially with home ice advantage.

Even if he other teams want to put their top lines against the HBL line, a line of Nodl-Richards-Versteeg could still create some solid chances and score some goals. The secondary thinking on this is if Nodl-Richards-Versteeg gets a top line and keeps them from scoring who is the next line going to match up against, JvR-Carter-Giroux or HBL? Tough choice and either way the opposing team is going to have a tough time matching that type of firepower.

JagerPuck 02-17-2011 08:13 AM

Eh, depth is fine. Keep em frash, Lavs

Jimmy Villa 02-17-2011 08:24 AM

Well, because of the offensive firepower we currently have, we are essentially rolling three 1st lines!
Other than H-B-L line, they are all pretty much swappable.

But it is my 2 cents that Z hasn't been given a fair run in this team. I'm not sure what his longest back-to-back games streak is for us, but I bet it's under 10.

Just seems odd to have an offensive cannon in your arsenal, and choose to play a tough guy over him vs Florida? Where is the logic here?

Now, if we'd been playing the Rags, or Pens etc, then you can understand wanting someone in your line-up to crack some skulls, but with Leino out, it was the perfect chance to slot Z in on that line and let him try to earn his spot.

It is my opinion he has done enough to earn a spot on the team for an extended run, but Lavi obvioulsy disagrees.

Meh, he's going to walk at the end of the season anyway regardless, so I just don't see why he doesn't play him over Car Bomb or Shelley against the softer teams certainly.

I suppose we do have the weakest D in the NHL, so all the offense has to be two way to compensate :sarcasm:

Adam Warlock 02-17-2011 08:43 AM

I like two things about Z being in the line up...

1.) He has a great scoring touch...so by playing with the rest of the talent in our top 9, he is going to get those chances and be able to bury them where guys like Nodl and Carcillo are likely to miss.

2.) He is kind of an X-factor. Opponents arent going to go into the game with him in mind, but he has the skill to one of our top offensive threats and score out of no where.

If you are going up against a division rival or something and want guys like Carcillo and Shelley in the lineup, I am fine with that...I just dont understand the need to constantly sit Zherdev...give the guy a chance.

kammy 02-17-2011 09:10 AM

i will simplify this for everybody... here's what it boils down to...

right now Lavi can afford to bench whomever he wants to bench because the team is healthy. if and when injuries start piling up, it's best to have a stocked cupboard with both skill and grind type players.

PhillyFlying 02-17-2011 09:25 AM

we're starting to see the emergence of carter-giroux-jvr as the "other" scoring line, so that gives us two solid scoring lines that can produce on a nightly basis. our fourth line is a crapshoot, but it's generally the same 4 guys in powe-betts-carcillo/shelley. it's becoming clear that lavi wants the third line, centered by richards, to be more of a shut-down line. having a line like this, with the addition of versteeg and along with nodl, that can be defensively minded and still score some goals is extremely beneficial. zherdev doesn't really belong in that regard. it would be foolish not to hold onto zherdev come playoff time incase something goes wrong with our top two lines, but it also doesn't really make any sense to throw him on richards' wing and thrusting him into a defensive role he clearly doesn't excel in. the times in which he has been most successful this season have been playing on a line with any combination of jvr, carter and giroux. otherwise he's just looked lost. and most importantly, IIRC, the flyers have only lost 1 game with zherdev out of the lineup (the loss to the kings last weekend), so i wouldn't be too worried about seeing him on the list of scratches. i trust lavi.

FreshPerspective 02-17-2011 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota (Post 30994103)
I like two things about Z being in the line up...

1.) He has a great scoring touch...so by playing with the rest of the talent in our top 9, he is going to get those chances and be able to bury them where guys like Nodl and Carcillo are likely to miss.

2.) He is kind of an X-factor. Opponents arent going to go into the game with him in mind, but he has the skill to one of our top offensive threats and score out of no where.

If you are going up against a division rival or something and want guys like Carcillo and Shelley in the lineup, I am fine with that...I just dont understand the need to constantly sit Zherdev...give the guy a chance.

That's fine but Lavy dislikes ONE major thing about Zherdev...NOT GIVING A CRAP throw in not playing within the system and the guy's days are numbered.

This was posted by Meltzer on the HockeyBuzz today..sorry if it was already brought up

Quote:

Finally, I am not surprised that even with Leino out, Nikolay Zherdev remained a healthy scratch. Peter Laviolette had been sending him a message about his increasingly lackadaisical play by cutting his ice time steadily over several games. Rather than heeding the warning, Zherdev continued to dog it. When he took a seat for the rest of the Carolina game after a shift in which his lack of hustle was readily apparent (on one of his final shifts of the game, Zherdev simply stood and watched rather than pursuing a loose puck along the boards), it was pretty clear that he'd gotten himself deep in the doghouse again.

DrinkFightFlyers 02-17-2011 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyflu (Post 30992925)
At this point, I don't think it has much to do with his game performance. He must be a real dog in practice is my guess.

Yeah this is what I am thinking. His games really haven't been that bad. He clearly hasn't been a standout all year but there really hasn't been a time where I have said, "OMG what is Z doing out there?" He must be showing up late/dogging it/or complaining during practice because his play on the ice hasn't really warranted to be benched behind Carcillo or Shelley.

FreshPerspective 02-17-2011 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers (Post 30994814)
Yeah this is what I am thinking. His games really haven't been that bad. He clearly hasn't been a standout all year but there really hasn't been a time where I have said, "OMG what is Z doing out there?" He must be showing up late/dogging it/or complaining during practice because his play on the ice hasn't really warranted to be benched behind Carcillo or Shelley.

Ahh...he's dogging it on the ice....as Meltzer noted in the post above. He's been doing it all year picking his spots and playing when he feels like it. Talking about this guy as part of the team is futile anymore. The coach doesn't like him for valid reasons not bias and I don't get sense he's even well liked in the locker room....

RIPRichardsCarter 02-17-2011 09:38 AM

Zherdev doesn't play with passion and doesn't play good team defense therefore he shouldn't play. Come playoff time those are two of the most important things you need and he will not play in the playoffs until something changes (I doubt it).

Personally, I think it's good that he's sitting in the box. It shows the guys that you can't be complacent and stay in the lineup. You might have all the talent in the world, but if you aren't playing hard and helping your team defensively you aren't going to play.

Cartsiephan* 02-17-2011 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyFlying (Post 30994732)
we're starting to see the emergence of carter-giroux-jvr as the "other" scoring line, so that gives us two solid scoring lines that can produce on a nightly basis. our fourth line is a crapshoot, but it's generally the same 4 guys in powe-betts-carcillo/shelley. it's becoming clear that lavi wants the third line, centered by richards, to be more of a shut-down line. having a line like this, with the addition of versteeg and along with nodl, that can be defensively minded and still score some goals is extremely beneficial. zherdev doesn't really belong in that regard. it would be foolish not to hold onto zherdev come playoff time incase something goes wrong with our top two lines, but it also doesn't really make any sense to throw him on richards' wing and thrusting him into a defensive role he clearly doesn't excel in. the times in which he has been most successful this season have been playing on a line with any combination of jvr, carter and giroux. otherwise he's just looked lost. and most importantly, IIRC, the flyers have only lost 1 game with zherdev out of the lineup (the loss to the kings last weekend), so i wouldn't be too worried about seeing him on the list of scratches. i trust lavi.

Yes, and this explains Zherdev as per Meltzer:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=33765

Finally, I am not surprised that even with Leino out, Nikolay Zherdev remained a healthy scratch. Peter Laviolette had been sending him a message about his increasingly lackadaisical play by cutting his ice time steadily over several games. Rather than heeding the warning, Zherdev continued to dog it. When he took a seat for the rest of the Carolina game after a shift in which his lack of hustle was readily apparent (on one of his final shifts of the game, Zherdev simply stood and watched rather than pursuing a loose puck along the boards), it was pretty clear that he'd gotten himself deep in the doghouse again.


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