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-   -   NEW IMPROVED Rangers' Prospect Poll #15 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=89908)

bmoak 07-08-2004 10:44 AM

NEW IMPROVED Rangers' Prospect Poll #15
 
Big Bruce Graham takes the prize here....

Rangers' Propsect Rankings:

1) Fedor Tjutin
2) Alvaro Montoya
3) Josef Balej
4) Hugh Jessiman
5) Henrik Lundqvist
6) Lauri Korpikoski
7) Maxim Kondratiev
8) Tomas Pock
9) Jarkko Immonen
10) Garth Murray
11) Petr Prucha
12) Ivan Baranka
13) Nigel Dawes
14) Bruce Graham

Who is the Rangers' #15 prospect?

in the hall 07-08-2004 10:56 AM

Have to go with Helminen. Heralded defensive player, one of the best in NCAA, now showing some offensive production.

Blueshirt13 07-08-2004 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by in the hall
Have to go with Helminen. Heralded defensive player, one of the best in NCAA, now showing some offensive production.

I think he is 5'9" or 5'10". Does he play a small game? Really don't know too much about him.

barnaby63 07-08-2004 11:13 AM

Unbelievable.

I can say one thing, everyone gets a hard on for newer names around here.

:shakehead :shakehead

True Blue 07-08-2004 11:18 AM

Again I say LIffiton.

Bluenote13 07-08-2004 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueshirt13
I think he is 5'9" or 5'10". Does he play a small game? Really don't know too much about him.

Best Penalty Killer in the Ncaa's the last few years. But he's also got offensive skills.

L.I.RangerFan 07-08-2004 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueshirt13
I think he is 5'9" or 5'10". Does he play a small game? Really don't know too much about him.

http://mgoblue.com/bio.cfm?bio_id=34...l=3&season=228

5'10" 193 lbs. Probably up to 200lbs. by now

http://mgoblue.com/document_display....ument_id=14678

Quote:

Junior forward Dwight Helminen (Brighton, Mich.) won the Howard Colby Trophy awarded for sportsmanship. Voted the CCHA's Best Defensive Forward in 2003-04, Helminen was second on the team with 17 goals and had 11 assists. He was only whistled for two penalties in 41 games, both of which occured in the same contest.
http://mgoblue.com/document_display....ument_id=14321

Quote:

Helminen captured the only the fourth Top Defensive Forward honor in U-M history, but he follows Jed Ortmeyer as the second straight member of the Maize and Blue to earn the award. Prior to Ortmeyer, a U-M forward had not earned the defensive honor since John Madden in 1997. Helminen keyed the U-M penalty kill and leads the team with two shorthanded goals. In addition to his strong defensive play, Helminen took over the overall team scoring lead with three goals during the first round of the CCHA playoffs, boosting his total to 17 on the season, 13 of which came during league play.
One of my favorite players that the Rangers traded for. Heart and soul player who gives his all every time he is on the ice. Knows where both sides of the red line are.
Compared to both John Madden and Ortmeyer by head coach Red Berenson.

BLACKBURN 07-08-2004 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
Unbelievable.

I can say one thing, everyone gets a hard on for newer names around here.

:shakehead :shakehead

I voted for him because in my opinion he has the most potential. I voted for Murray earlier because he was the best psopect at that point in the poll, it has nothing to do with "new toys." Its not as if there is a Graham bandwagon and everyone is going nuts and overhyping him on this board or anywhere else.

The kids got potential, next year he will break out.

Blueshirt13 07-08-2004 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.I.RangerFan
One of my favorite players that the Rangers traded for. Heart and soul player who gives his all every time he is on the ice. Knows where both sides of the red line are.
Compared to both John Madden and Ortmeyer by head coach Red Berenson.

Your last line makes me a bit of a fan and nudges me to do some more research on him. After seeing the energy Ortmeyer played with and Madden being Madden, any guy compared to the two of them deserves a look.

Thanks for the info.

Bird Law 07-08-2004 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Again I say LIffiton.

Same.

I go Liffiton then Helminen then Roche.

Dgrohl8 07-08-2004 12:46 PM

Liffffton

Fletch 07-08-2004 12:46 PM

I accidentally voted for Helminen..
 
but meant to vote for Liffiton.

Helminen's intriguing, and I've become pretty excited about him, but right now, I'm thinking of him as a fourth line player, maybe third line potential. I know he's been compared to Ortmeyer and Madden, but Ortmeyer's really a fourth liner in my mind until he shows he can score (and he was an average scorer in college, just like Helminen) and Madden was a bit better in the scoring department. I know, defense means something, but you're not going to put a guy out there against top lines and penalty kills for 16-18 minutes per game and get 5 goals out of him and be happy. I like Helminen as a prospect, but he needs to break out offensively (two 17 goal seasons is nice, but I'd like to see 30%+ more).

barnaby63 07-08-2004 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reveille
Same.

I go Liffiton then Helminen then Roche.

Man, everyone soured on Moore around here.

So a high-school center that is like 5'10 is a better prospect right now then Moore?

Like i said, newer names always gets the praise.

Fletch 07-08-2004 12:54 PM

Who's the high school center?
 
Helminen's going into his senior year at Michigan. And why is it hard to fathom that a new name can top an older name? Additionally the name that is topping the list is the best defensive forward on a competitive team in a very competitive league. Moore's nice too, but there's no clear-cut winner there.

jas 07-08-2004 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
Helminen's going into his senior year at Michigan. And why is it hard to fathom that a new name can top an older name? Additionally the name that is topping the list is the best defensive forward on a competitive team in a very competitive league. Moore's nice too, but there's no clear-cut winner there.

Especially in the case of players like Korpikoski and Montoya, both who are considered to be "A" level prospects.

barnaby63 07-08-2004 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas
Especially in the case of players like Korpikoski and Montoya, both who are considered to be "A" level prospects.

I wasnt talking about them.

Bruce Grahame has higher upside then Moore, but Moore is more prepared for the NHL and can be a 3rd liner. He is guaranteed to at least be a 4th liner. What is Grahame guaranteed?

I mean, wasnt that the justification to put Murray ahead of Prucha?

Or do i see a double-standard?

Bird Law 07-08-2004 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
Man, everyone soured on Moore around here.

So a high-school center that is like 5'10 is a better prospect right now then Moore?

Like i said, newer names always gets the praise.

High school?

No.

He was a rookie at a fairly stacked Boston team and played his way into the line up. He put up SERIOUSLY impressive numbers for a team as heavy as Boston as a freshman. I seriously thought he'd only get in 10 or so games and put up a point or two, but he was one of their best players down the line and always stepped up.

He will be our #5 or so prospect next year. Guaranteed.

jas 07-08-2004 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
I wasnt talking about them.

Bruce Grahame has higher upside then Moore, but Moore is more prepared for the NHL and can be a 3rd liner. He is guaranteed to at least be a 4th liner. What is Grahame guaranteed?

I mean, wasnt that the justification to put Murray ahead of Prucha?

Or do i see a double-standard?


Part of it is upside, part of it is stage of development and part of it does depend upon whether the player will play in the NHL, especially in regards to the European players. Look at how quickly Tyutin. Look at how much closer Baranka is to the NHL.

Fletch 07-08-2004 01:39 PM

barnaby...
 
it all depends on how you rank a prospect. You seem to think that NHL-readiness is very important. Personally, and we may've already beaten this to death, I look more to potential, as in, what can this guy become. Probabilities of becoming something factors into the decision too but I'm ranking a potential #1 goalie who's 19 years old and 2-3 years away from the NHL higher than a guy like Moore, a guy who at 23 or 24 isn't going to improve much more even though he can currently play a fourth line in the NHL, with the upside of the third line at some time.

As for Murray vs. Prucha...personally I didn't vote for Murray, but people see a guy who can be the team's potential captain, a hard-nosed, hard-working player who'll stick up for his teammates and has third line or second line potential.

barnaby63 07-08-2004 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reveille
High school?

No.

He was a rookie at a fairly stacked Boston team and played his way into the line up. He put up SERIOUSLY impressive numbers for a team as heavy as Boston as a freshman. I seriously thought he'd only get in 10 or so games and put up a point or two, but he was one of their best players down the line and always stepped up.

He will be our #5 or so prospect next year. Guaranteed.

I will hold you to it.

Potted Plant 07-08-2004 02:05 PM

GUYS! We are talking about the #15 prospect in the organization. There's no need to get up in arms about it.

Two questions:

1) No love for Lampman?
2) How did we acquire Helminen?

E-Train 07-08-2004 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
I will hold you to it.


Barnaby63-Reveille-

Just to clarify, we're talking about Roche here, right?

Blueshirt13 07-08-2004 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
GUYS! We are talking about the #15 prospect in the organization. There's no need to get up in arms about it.

Two questions:

1) No love for Lampman?
2) How did we acquire Helminen?

Helminen was part of the Nedved trade.

L.I.RangerFan 07-08-2004 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
GUYS! We are talking about the #15 prospect in the organization. There's no need to get up in arms about it.

Two questions:

1) No love for Lampman?
2) How did we acquire Helminen?


Two answers :)

1) IMO Lampman will be a borderline top 6 d-man. He is one of those in between guys. Some offensive skills, some defensive skills but he isn't great at one thing. He is a safe d-man with limited upside. He didn't show me much when he was up last year. Right now my top 6 d-men prospects/youngsters is: (in order)

Tyutin, Pock, Kondratiev, Baranka, Liffiton, and then Taylor/Guenin/Lampman

Couple of years down the road I would love to see these pairings:

Tyutin/Baranka
Pock/Liffiton
Kondratiev/Taylor/Guenin/Lampman

2) Helminen was acquired in the Nedved deal. It was Helminen, Valiquette and a 2nd rounder for Nedved and Markannan.

Melrose_Jr. 07-08-2004 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
GUYS! We are talking about the #15 prospect in the organization. There's no need to get up in arms about it.

We've had controversy since #1, so I'm not surprised it's extended through the rest of the polls. I'm getting a lot out of the facts presented from each side.

I also have love from Lampman too HRR. One factor is my lack of knowledge on some of the newer players this far down. Another is the fact that I see this guy making it to the NHL. Even if I'm not projecting a superstar career, in my set of criteria, that rates him higher than those with a bigger potential upside.


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