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-   -   Justin Williams Appreciation Thread (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=899855)

markisonfire 04-06-2011 05:49 AM

Justin Williams Appreciation Thread
 
Am I the only person that thinks that Justin Williams is our best forward? Last season, the Smyth-Kopitar-Williams line went on a tear to start the season. Williams gets hurt and the line goes cold. This year, same thing to start the season with Smyth-Stoll-Williams. Then Williams gets moved to Kopi's line to jump start the offense.

It just seems to me that every time Williams is on the ice, he is not only giving 110% effort but is looking to do something with the puck. Getting Williams back will be a huge boost for the playoffs, if we can survive that long.

If only he wasn't made of glass!

KingsKnight 04-06-2011 06:02 AM

For not being the biggest guy out there, he uses his speed and hustle to create some space. He also has the hands to get good passes off when he wants to. The one thing that bothers me though is that he likes to hang on to the puck for just a little too long and can end up getting it stripped. It seemed to happen more after he signed his recent contract, like he's trying hard to make a play when a simple shot/pass would do.

Muzzinga 04-06-2011 08:44 AM

Well hes obviously not the best forward since he lacks the offensive and defensive talent of Kopitar.

He is the 2nd best forward, by a distance aswell. He is the only 1 other than Kopi who creates legitimate scoring chances for his linemates

SLang 04-06-2011 10:18 AM

If he could control (eliminate) his turnovers a little more he'd be just about perfect. Well, that and if his bones didn't break/pop out of their joints/sockets every time an opposing player breathed on him. :sarcasm:

Quattro 04-06-2011 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markisonfire (Post 32150995)
Am I the only person that thinks that Justin Williams is our best forward?

Yes, you are.

Telos 04-06-2011 11:40 AM

LoL, when I saw this thread, I thought he retired due to injury or something. He has been great. He needs to replicate his production next year and stay healthy.

Sydor25 04-06-2011 11:42 AM

Williams is one of the few players that can be creative and not end up in the dog house with Murray. Kudos for that.

two out of three* 04-06-2011 12:09 PM

Justin Williams has been our best forward this year. Not sure if he IS our best forward but he definitely has been. I know people want to say that "Kopitar has more skill" but THIS year Justin Williams has been better. You have to be able to appreciate the little things that go on during a game, such as plays along the wall right inside your own blue line, and tight little intricate passes that allow your teammates time and space.

Fishhead 04-06-2011 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32155415)
Justin Williams has been our best forward this year. Not sure if he IS our best forward but he definitely has been. I know people want to say that "Kopitar has more skill" but THIS year Justin Williams has been better. You have to be able to appreciate the little things that go on during a game, such as plays along the wall right inside your own blue line, and tight little intricate passes that allow your teammates time and space.

Other than (this year) Kopitar scoring more goals, getting more assists, having a much better +/-, having 6 GWG, shutting down other teams top players, dominating games at times, and being mentioned in Selke conversations, I agree with this post.

SLang 04-06-2011 02:18 PM

Let's all save ourselves the effort and be happy with "Justin Williams is one of our top two forwards this year". :nod:

JT Dutch* 04-06-2011 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32155415)
Justin Williams has been our best forward this year. Not sure if he IS our best forward but he definitely has been.

... At no point has Justin Williams ever been the Kings' best forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32155415)
I know people want to say that "Kopitar has more skill" but THIS year Justin Williams has been better.

... People want to say that Kopitar has more skill because he DOES have more skill. This is debatable? And Kopitar has been, far and away, the best forward (and best player) on the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32155415)
You have to be able to appreciate the little things that go on during a game, such as plays along the wall right inside your own blue line, and tight little intricate passes that allow your teammates time and space.

... I think it's more of a case where no one benefits more from his linemates than Williams does. He first had a center in Stoll who was consistently winning draws, and consistently covering for his and Smyth's mistakes in the offensive zone by hanging back and becoming a third defenseman. Then, his center was Kopitar, the best player on the team and also a very strong defensive forward. Honestly, if a winger can't contribute offensively playing alongside centers like Stoll and Kopitar, there's something very wrong with that winger. Now, don't get me wrong. Williams is a good player, and he's skilled. He also turns the puck over more often than anyone on the team. No one player is more inconsistent with his play from shift to shift than Williams is. He's a complimentary player who usually needs the open ice his linemates create. He's not really good enough to be the focal point of the line he happens to be on.

two out of three* 04-07-2011 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishhead (Post 32157970)
Other than (this year) Kopitar scoring more goals, getting more assists, having a much better +/-, having 6 GWG, shutting down other teams top players, dominating games at times, and being mentioned in Selke conversations, I agree with this post.

First of all, neither of these has ever happened. Except for MAYBE the time he netted his hat trick, that may have been him "dominating a game." Now to my next point. By YOUR logic, and that logic being that if player X has more points than player Y, then player X is BETTER than player Y... You are trying to tell me that:

Corey Perry is better than Steven Stamkos.

Martin St. Louis is better than Alex Ovechkin.

Teemu Selanne is better than Eric Staal, Brad Richards, and Patrick Kane.

Lubomir Visnovsky is better than Rick Nash.

You get the picture. It's not all about box scores, guy. Justin Williams has been THE GUY this year.

Ollie Weeks 04-07-2011 02:33 AM

I for one want that puck on his stick, turnovers be damned. He's quickly became one of my favourite Kings, with a great combination of skill and determination.

two out of three* 04-07-2011 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32163435)
... At no point has Justin Williams ever been the Kings' best forward.

Except for this whole entire season.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32163435)
... People want to say that Kopitar has more skill because he DOES have more skill. This is debatable? And Kopitar has been, far and away, the best forward (and best player) on the team.

It's almost like you failed to read. Kopitar DOES have more skill, but having more skill doesn't automatically make a player better than another. Alexander Daigle had a TON of skill.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32163435)
... I think it's more of a case where no one benefits more from his linemates than Williams does. He first had a center in Stoll who was consistently winning draws, and consistently covering for his and Smyth's mistakes in the offensive zone by hanging back and becoming a third defenseman. Then, his center was Kopitar, the best player on the team and also a very strong defensive forward. Honestly, if a winger can't contribute offensively playing alongside centers like Stoll and Kopitar, there's something very wrong with that winger. Now, don't get me wrong. Williams is a good player, and he's skilled. He also turns the puck over more often than anyone on the team. No one player is more inconsistent with his play from shift to shift than Williams is. He's a complimentary player who usually needs the open ice his linemates create. He's not really good enough to be the focal point of the line he happens to be on.

I'm not completely certain which player you are watching. First, you talk about Williams being responsible defensively and being the third guy high when he needed to be like its a bad thing. The last thing I thought I would EVER hear when somebody is discussing Williams' play this year was to call him "inconsistent." He has been the MOST consistent this year for shift to shift, if you can't see that then I do not know what to tell you. Oh, and by the way he CREATES for his linemates he doesn't need players to create for him.

We could sit here and talk about Kopitar being lazy and reaching for pucks instead of skating for them, or Kopitar being soft, or Kopitar really just bringing the power play to a complete stand still most of the time.. But we won't do that. (p.s. Kopitar is a beauty, but Williams has been the guy this year.)

Actual performance > Box scores.

JT Dutch* 04-07-2011 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32176020)
Except for this whole entire season.

... It's cool if you want to overrate him, I get it. But there's no way in hell he was the best player on the team this season, or even the best forward. I said in my post that he's been a good player this year. He's been no more valuable to the Kings than Stoll or Brown has been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32176020)
Kopitar DOES have more skill, but having more skill doesn't automatically make a player better than another. Alexander Daigle had a TON of skill.

... In this case, however, it's clear Kopitar is the better player. Honestly, it's silly to argue this. Kopitar is a better player offensively, and he's better defensively. Kopitar is a better shooter, and a better passer, and a better stickhandler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32176020)
First, you talk about Williams being responsible defensively and being the third guy high when he needed to be like its a bad thing.

... No, what I actually said was Williams was the beneficiary of having centers like Stoll and Kopitar who are more responsible defensively and able to cover for Williams. On top of that, Stoll was winning draws pretty consistently and ensuring that the line would have possession of the puck, and that more than anything was the reason for the hot start that the Smyth-Stoll-Williams line got off to. If the other team doesn't have the puck, they can't score or put pressure on the defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32176020)
The last thing I thought I would EVER hear when somebody is discussing Williams' play this year was to call him "inconsistent." He has been the MOST consistent this year for shift to shift, if you can't see that then I do not know what to tell you.

... That's strange because I and several others have been calling this out all season long, actually. Williams is the definition of the hit-or-miss player. He can go out and make a great pass that leads to a goal, or score a goal himself, and then in his very next shift turn the puck over, leading to a goal or a good chance against. And, the thing is - you don't have to take my word for it. Look at his giveaway numbers; they're right there in black and white. Again, I'm not saying he's been a bad player. But he has been the definition of inconsistent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32176020)
Oh, and by the way he CREATES for his linemates he doesn't need players to create for him.

... Well, if that's the case, I'd like to see it. It's been the other way around FAR more often than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32176020)
We could sit here and talk about Kopitar being lazy and reaching for pucks instead of skating for them, or Kopitar being soft, or Kopitar really just bringing the power play to a complete stand still most of the time.. But we won't do that.

... Hahaha, I love quotes like "but we won't do that" right after you just did. And, I'm not going to go into all of this silly **** about Kopitar's perceived flaws, because the simple fact of the matter is that Kopitar has undoubtedly produced more tangible and positive results than Williams has - and it isn't close. Kopitar isn't 100% perfect as a player, but he's certainly the best the Kings have and he's top ten at his position in the NHL - arguably he's top five. Can you say that Williams is a top ten winger in the league? Of course not.

two out of three* 04-07-2011 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32181158)
... It's cool if you want to overrate him, I get it. But there's no way in hell he was the best player on the team this season, or even the best forward. I said in my post that he's been a good player this year. He's been no more valuable to the Kings than Stoll or Brown has been.

THAT is simply just false, IMO. Stoll is very valuable and so is Brown at times, but Justin Williams has been the guy night in night out (when he was in the line up.) If ever we needed something to happen, it would be Justin Williams.. CREATING. I'm confused as to how you haven't seen Williams create for his teammates.. That's WHAT he does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32181158)
... In this case, however, it's clear Kopitar is the better player. Honestly, it's silly to argue this. Kopitar is a better player offensively, and he's better defensively. Kopitar is a better shooter, and a better passer, and a better stickhandler.

Obviously if I'm drafting a team, I'm taking Kopitar before I take Williams. That's not what I'm trying to argue, all I'm saying is is that THIS YEAR, if you ask me to throw Williams or Kopitar over the boards.. I'm throwing Williams on the ice, because I know we will have zone pressure and SOMETHING offensively will be created. (Not because of his line mates. Because of him.) JW is also good defensively. Making plays inside our own blue-line are so underrated, and JW makes it look easy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32181158)
... No, what I actually said was Williams was the beneficiary of having centers like Stoll and Kopitar who are more responsible defensively and able to cover for Williams. On top of that, Stoll was winning draws pretty consistently and ensuring that the line would have possession of the puck, and that more than anything was the reason for the hot start that the Smyth-Stoll-Williams line got off to. If the other team doesn't have the puck, they can't score or put pressure on the defense.

I misread your original post about the third guy high. However, I'm almost positive you pulled it out of thin air that "Stoll covers for Williams' mistakes." As if Williams makes them so frequently that he has to be there all the time. Williams, as far as I'm concerned, most all the time makes the right decision with the puck.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32181158)
... That's strange because I and several others have been calling this out all season long, actually. Williams is the definition of the hit-or-miss player. He can go out and make a great pass that leads to a goal, or score a goal himself, and then in his very next shift turn the puck over, leading to a goal or a good chance against. And, the thing is - you don't have to take my word for it. Look at his giveaway numbers; they're right there in black and white. Again, I'm not saying he's been a bad player. But he has been the definition of inconsistent.

Michal Handzus has less giveaways than Anze Kopitar. THAT means Handzus has been more consistent than Kopitar, right?


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32181158)
... Hahaha, I love quotes like "but we won't do that" right after you just did. And, I'm not going to go into all of this silly **** about Kopitar's perceived flaws, because the simple fact of the matter is that Kopitar has undoubtedly produced more tangible and positive results than Williams has - and it isn't close. Kopitar isn't 100% perfect as a player, but he's certainly the best the Kings have and he's top ten at his position in the NHL - arguably he's top five. Can you say that Williams is a top ten winger in the league? Of course not.

I'm not bashing Kopitar, Kopitar is awesome. I think the point here is that you think "Justin Williams is an okay player" whereas the reality is Justin Williams has actually been a very very good player for us. At the very LEAST he's been the second best forward on the team. (I also do not want to downplay the contributions of Stoll as I feel that he is under appreciated around here, but I'd still take JW > Stoll... This year.)

JT Dutch* 04-07-2011 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32182114)
THAT is simply just false, IMO. Stoll is very valuable and so is Brown at times, but Justin Williams has been the guy night in night out (when he was in the line up.)

... Sure, Williams has one more point than Brown does and 15 more points than Stoll. But Stoll and Brown are better defensively, and they're more versatile in that they play more physical and contribute on the PK. In Stoll's case, of course there's also faceoff ability to consider, as well as the fact that Stoll will block shots (he's third among forwards, behind Handzus and Kopitar).

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32182114)
all I'm saying is is that THIS YEAR, if you ask me to throw Williams or Kopitar over the boards.. I'm throwing Williams on the ice

... Let's say we were two coaches competing against one another, and we both had a choice of Kopitar or Williams. If you're throwing Williams out there, I'm breathing a sigh of relief and sending out Kopitar. And I'll beat you just about every day of the week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32182114)
I misread your original post about the third guy high. However, I'm almost positive you pulled it out of thin air that "Stoll covers for Williams' mistakes." As if Williams makes them so frequently that he has to be there all the time.

... Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said Stoll is usually the guy who covers for his linemates defensively, and he is. Stoll, as well as Kopitar, are simply better defensive players. Both of them have more takeaways than giveaways, they turn the puck over far less often than Williams does, and they're more versatile. Again, this shouldn't even be a subject of debate. If Williams was a good defensive player, he would be used in more situations. He's decent defensively, no more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32182114)
Michal Handzus has less giveaways than Anze Kopitar. THAT means Handzus has been more consistent than Kopitar, right?

... If you say so!

Quote:

Originally Posted by two out of three (Post 32182114)
I'm not bashing Kopitar, Kopitar is awesome. I think the point here is that you think "Justin Williams is an okay player" whereas the reality is Justin Williams has actually been a very very good player for us.

... Again, this is you putting words into my mouth. What I actually said was that Williams is a good player. He's quite good offensively, he's decent enough defensively. He brings a different look to the lines he plays on. I don't think he's the second best forward on the team, but whatever - I don't like to do it that way anyway. He's a top six forward, there's no question about that. I'm not going to get into the fanboy stuff you wrote; I think you're overrating him, but I can agree to disagree here. If he comes back for the playoffs, and he's not just running 75-80% out there, he will help the team. If he can't come back at 100% or close to it, I'd rather him take the time off and get healthy because he's been signed to a multi-year deal (a questionable move for a guy who doesn't play full seasons anymore) and I'd like to see him have a reasonable chance to play in 70+ games next season and the seasons after that.

two out of three* 04-07-2011 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32183193)
... Sure, Williams has one more point than Brown does and 15 more points than Stoll. But Stoll and Brown are better defensively, and they're more versatile in that they play more physical and contribute on the PK. In Stoll's case, of course there's also faceoff ability to consider, as well as the fact that Stoll will block shots (he's third among forwards, behind Handzus and Kopitar).

I would love for you to try and breakdown how "Brown is better defensively than Williams." People break out the "better defensively" comment just to try and sound good.. Without really knowing if that player is ACTUALLY better defensively.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32183193)
... Let's say we were two coaches competing against one another, and we both had a choice of Kopitar or Williams. If you're throwing Williams out there, I'm breathing a sigh of relief and sending out Kopitar. And I'll beat you just about every day of the week.

Well, luckily hockey is a team game and isn't played in a 1 on 1 scenario. Not sure why THIS was part of your response, but it's okay.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32183193)
... Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said Stoll is usually the guy who covers for his linemates defensively, and he is. Stoll, as well as Kopitar, are simply better defensive players. Both of them have more takeaways than giveaways, they turn the puck over far less often than Williams does, and they're more versatile. Again, this shouldn't even be a subject of debate. If Williams was a good defensive player, he would be used in more situations. He's decent defensively, no more.

Being a center means that you have way more of a defensive responsibility than any other forward. You have to play down low, and you have to grind it out in the corners. Most everybody that gets discussed for the Selke Trophy are centers. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kopitar, Mike Richards, Toews, Jordan Staal, Kesler, all play center. It just comes with the territory. If it Kopitar and Stoll weren't better defensively than JW, that would be a problem.

In regards to the giveaways, players that play wing are more prone to turn pucks over than centers are. It's such a difficult task inside your own blue with defenseman on your back to make plays. That's probably where most of wingers giveaways come from.. When they just chip it out past the D to get it out of the zone.[/QUOTE]


Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Dutch (Post 32183193)
... Again, this is you putting words into my mouth. What I actually said was that Williams is a good player. He's quite good offensively, he's decent enough defensively. He brings a different look to the lines he plays on. I don't think he's the second best forward on the team, but whatever - I don't like to do it that way anyway. He's a top six forward, there's no question about that. I'm not going to get into the fanboy stuff you wrote; I think you're overrating him, but I can agree to disagree here. If he comes back for the playoffs, and he's not just running 75-80% out there, he will help the team. If he can't come back at 100% or close to it, I'd rather him take the time off and get healthy because he's been signed to a multi-year deal (a questionable move for a guy who doesn't play full seasons anymore) and I'd like to see him have a reasonable chance to play in 70+ games next season and the seasons after that.

Why is it when people bring up deficiencies in their favorite players game, the OTHER person becomes a fanboy? There's no "fan-boy-ism.." Both players have meant a lot.. Williams just a little more than Kopitar this year though.


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