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-   -   Talent evaluation of our young players is terrible. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=901338)

habakkuk 04-09-2011 06:54 PM

Talent evaluation of our young players is terrible.
 
What if I said we could have 3 top six forwards, with a combined total of 73 goals and 154 points and we wouldn't have to give anybody off our big team roster to get them.
What if I said we would trade three of our top 4 goal scorers for a couple of minor league crapshoots.
That's what we've done in trading our problem children: Sergei 23g 50pts,
Milkhail 29g 58 pts and Matt 21g 46 pts. Obviously there's something rotten in Denmark because we havn't heard a peep from either of these players since they we liberated from Montreal. There is a serious problem somewhere, whether it's in the evaluation of our young players or in the way we handle them in Montreal.
Notice I didn't mention Roy, Leclair or Latendresse.
Is this a team where history, tradition or conformitity are more important than talent? I'm delighted we have Price, Subban and Pacioretty to lead us forward but was worried about Subban for a while. He seemed to being led down the same old road where the media prepares the way by telling us how immature how disruptive or how useless these guys are just prior to the organization trading them.
By the time these guys are finally traded we've destroyed any trade value they might have had.

llamateizer 04-09-2011 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habakkuk (Post 32235629)
What if I said we could have 3 top six forwards, with a combined total of 73 goals and 154 points and we wouldn't have to give anybody off our big team roster to get them.
What if I said we would trade three of our top 4 goal scorers for a couple of minor league crapshoots.
That's what we've done in trading our problem children: Sergei 23g 50pts,
Milkhail 29g 58 pts and Matt 21g 46 pts. Obviously there's something rotten in Denmark because we havn't heard a peep from either of these players since they we liberated from Montreal. There is a serious problem somewhere, whether it's in the evaluation of our young players or in the way we handle them in Montreal.
Notice I didn't mention Roy, Leclair or Latendresse.
Is this a team where history, tradition or conformitity are more important than talent? I'm delighted we have Price, Subban and Pacioretty to lead us forward but was worried about Subban for a while. He seemed to being led down the same old road where the media prepares the way by telling us how immature how disruptive or how useless these guys are just prior to the organization trading them.
By the time these guys are finally traded we've destroyed any trade value they might have had.

:cry::cry::cry::cry:

We got Gorges in a trade, but the habs is a bad management so no need to give credits
Grabner got 30 goals and was grabbed by waiver. Sometimes, players need a new start to start producing.

Fish on The Sand 04-09-2011 07:00 PM

We didn't lose Grabs and SKost due to talent evaluation. We lost them due to well documented attitude issues that saw Grabovski bail on the team after being scratched and SKost quit twice in as many months. In both cases the players wanted nothing to do with the cancers. We are a better team by simply not having either of them.

LyricalLyricist 04-09-2011 07:04 PM

why WOULD you mention latendresse? him coming to camp out of shape and getting injured because of it is an asset to our team?

coolasprICE 04-09-2011 07:08 PM

I just don't buy 'these kids needed a change of scenery' excuse.

The reality is they are producing elsewhere and are non-problematic.

How much are they worth on the open market today?

FAIL.

costathing 04-09-2011 07:13 PM

wow nice timming for such a crappy thread lmao..Anyways Grabo ans SK are not players that core material theyre just nice scoring depth player i mean imo were a bettre team whithout them

Kriss E 04-09-2011 07:15 PM

Having a rough day?..

Hank Scorpio 04-09-2011 07:40 PM

The grass always looks greener on the other side.

Moester 04-09-2011 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolasprICE (Post 32235944)
I just don't buy 'these kids needed a change of scenery' excuse.

The reality is they are producing elsewhere and are non-problematic.

How much are they worth on the open market today?

FAIL.

Yeah, because there's no real examples of this in the NHL today.

Oh...wait...There's Francois Beauchemin, Erik Cole, Teemu Selanne, Geoffrey Lupul, Christobal Huet and Brad Boyes who have turned their play around after changing locations...

The fact is that some players only play at their best under certain condition or with certain types of linemates or coaches.

I find it funny when people talk about hockey players like they're not human beings. In my life I have worked with talented people who couldn't get their talents to come out in all situations. It's not because they're lazy (well sometimes it is) or bad people, it's that people react differently to different environments; and the individual than can thrive in all of them is a very special person indeed and that represents a talent in of itself.

holyhabs87 04-09-2011 08:57 PM

Only one I am mad at is Sergei. He actually produced quite well in Montreal. He deserved a longer leash. Price had problems too, PK got in some trouble, Sergei was worse but still a poor decision. Even more so considering we got nothing in return for him.

coolasprICE 04-09-2011 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moester (Post 32238186)
Yeah, because there's no real examples of this in the NHL today.

Oh...wait...There's Francois Beauchemin, Erik Cole, Teemu Selanne, Geoffrey Lupul, Christobal Huet and Brad Boyes who have turned their play around after changing locations...

Ya, the only thing you're leaving out is that these players didn't depart from the same team in a matter of a year or two.

Born in 1909 04-09-2011 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habakkuk (Post 32235629)
What if I said we could have 3 top six forwards, with a combined total of 73 goals and 154 points and we wouldn't have to give anybody off our big team roster to get them.
What if I said we would trade three of our top 4 goal scorers for a couple of minor league crapshoots.
That's what we've done in trading our problem children: Sergei 23g 50pts,
Milkhail 29g 58 pts and Matt 21g 46 pts. Obviously there's something rotten in Denmark because we havn't heard a peep from either of these players since they we liberated from Montreal. There is a serious problem somewhere, whether it's in the evaluation of our young players or in the way we handle them in Montreal.
Notice I didn't mention Roy, Leclair or Latendresse.
Is this a team where history, tradition or conformitity are more important than talent? I'm delighted we have Price, Subban and Pacioretty to lead us forward but was worried about Subban for a while. He seemed to being led down the same old road where the media prepares the way by telling us how immature how disruptive or how useless these guys are just prior to the organization trading them.
By the time these guys are finally traded we've destroyed any trade value they might have had.

If you separate your thoughts into paragraphs...

... they will be easier to read... and understand.

You're welcome. :)

KristoLeblanc* 04-09-2011 09:52 PM

I don't care about Sergei or Grabovsky, they had their reason.

However, Montreal shouldn't traded Ribeiro for a one epic internet picture of Niiniima. Ribeiro would help A LOT and we wouldn't have to waste 7.3 millions on Gomez.

Papa Bear 04-09-2011 10:44 PM

Sergei K? Gimme a break, most people figured he’d end up in Russia if it did not work out with him this season. He had zero value when he was traded. If there’s one thing I would have preferred, it would have been at least getting guys a little different than what we already had. I mean I would not have minded getting a Brad Winchester (who later got traded for a 5th pick) for D’Ago. Because we don’t have that type of player. But bigons.

But the departure of the the players you mentioned was not, IMO, based on bad player evaluation. It had much more to do with with the mental capacity of the players involved. I think that it’s pretty clear that going forward the Habs will need to be able to draft strong willed players with a strong sense of self-confidence if they want them to succeed in this city. The players that are emerging: PK, Price, Max, even Eller and Desharnais, all have a confident edge to them, to the point of sometimes coming off as cocky (either on or off the ice). But IMO that sense of self-confidence (more in a “I’m gonna do it regardless” way and less a Mikey Ribs / ‘ti Guy / Serge K sense of entitlement way) is absolutely necessary to overcome the bi-polar fans and media in the city. The players that left (including D’Ago, O’Byrne) did not have that quality and thus were never really going to succeed here. We should be okay with the fact they are doing well elsewhere and move on. Let's just hope the brass realizes the trend and drafts players that will be able to cut it here.

googlymoogly 04-09-2011 10:48 PM

At least there is one good thing about this. Montreal can draft NHLers some teams can;t even do that with top 10 picks.

Newhabfan 04-09-2011 10:53 PM

Yep, one of those threads.

What's next ? We should have drafted Carter instead of AK ? Lucic instead of Maxwell ? Gomez is overpaid ?

Keep on watching L'antichambre and listening to Michel Villeneuve.

The Habs had probably their second best season in a decade. D'Agostini (and Halak) and Grabovski will go golfing next week. Who cares ?

RE-HABS 04-09-2011 11:08 PM

First thing is first.

SK, Grabovski and D'Agostini....neither one of these players are a top 3, maybe even top 6 player with any other team. St. Louis, Toronto and Nashville are not teams blessed with talent or depth. They are getting their points as top 6 players on these teams. Not taking away that I always felt Sergei is a potential top 6, but he like Grabovski is a player who plays when they want to play.

None of these players were going to work in Montreal. SK may have, but he played like Lats and felt owed or privileged.

2 of these 3 are not in the playoffs. What is their all around game like, and also lets see where their game is next year too.

Habs used their 2nd round pick for Grabovski in return for Moore or to trade up for Tinordi, not sure which, but to me either worked out well.

SK. He had no value, he was all risk and reward. Ellis never signed, Boyd never panned out. SK could be the haunting player, but I also don't think the bros work in Montreal.

D'Agositini. To me is a flash in the pan. As soon as the kids are developing in St. Louis, he will move down the line sequence and will eventually be out of St. Louis, or the NHL.

Vasculio 04-10-2011 12:35 AM

OP's post is as painful to read as the repetitiveness of the subject is to bear... get over it already :help:

habfaninvictoria 04-10-2011 01:35 AM

If SK hadn't been such a ***** and paid his dues he would have gotten his chances last year and this... didn't miss him one bit.

The n00b King 04-10-2011 02:01 AM

why do you people CONSTANTLY entertain these stupid posts?

I mean how many times has this dead horse been beaten?

Just ignore these...sheesh.

Quarantesix 04-10-2011 02:40 AM

I like when people act like Sergei is not good enough for this team even if Nashville end up the season with 99 points.

Miller Time 04-10-2011 02:46 AM

this is what's hard to understand imo:

- all three players were moved in part because of question marks about their character (deserved as it may have been), but none have shown any signs of having that same problem with their new team

- all three players seemed to have a beef about not getting a good/fair opportunity to prove themselves and contribute to their abilities, and thus far all three players have gone on to very quickly show that they were capable of delivering, once given a fair/decent shot.



I don't quite buy the "not on a playoff team" argument, because frankly, we have several players in our lineup that should be golfing next week instead of many of the far superior players whose season ends this weekend.

I don't think anyone will successfully argue against that, as of right now, Grabs is a better top-6 than Gomez.

Likewise, it would be very hard to convince anyone that Pouliot remains a better player/prospect than either S.Kost or D'agostini. If he produced at their levels, we'd be thrilled...


so beyond the fact that all 3 of these players who almost immediately became more valuable assets once we had unloaded them for a pittance, we didn't replace them with a clear upgrade (making the argument that we had no room for them pretty obsolete).

give me Grabs, D'ago and S.Kost over Gomez, Pouliot, and our revolving door top-9 winger(s) any day of the week, and that's on talent/production alone, ignoring the massive salary cap difference.

HH 04-10-2011 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newhabfan (Post 32246152)
Yep, one of those threads.

What's next ? We should have drafted Carter instead of AK ? Lucic instead of Maxwell ? Gomez is overpaid ?

Keep on watching L'antichambre and listening to Michel Villeneuve.

The Habs had probably their second best season in a decade. D'Agostini (and Halak) and Grabovski will go golfing next week. Who cares ?

Bingo.

Every team makes ''mistakes''. Personally I don't think Grabovski or Sergei were mistakes as they were not part of the team culture.Congrats to 29 goals Grabo, enjoy the links.

You forgot to mention how players like Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Andrei, Subban, Price all come from our drafting and developing system and most of them are key parts of this 96pts team who had their second best season since 1994 without their no1 and no3 defensemen for over half the year.

HH 04-10-2011 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller Time (Post 32253113)
this is what's hard to understand imo:

- all three players were moved in part because of question marks about their character (deserved as it may have been), but none have shown any signs of having that same problem with their new team

- all three players seemed to have a beef about not getting a good/fair opportunity to prove themselves and contribute to their abilities, and thus far all three players have gone on to very quickly show that they were capable of delivering, once given a fair/decent shot.



I don't quite buy the "not on a playoff team" argument, because frankly, we have several players in our lineup that should be golfing next week instead of many of the far superior players whose season ends this weekend.

I don't think anyone will successfully argue against that, as of right now, Grabs is a better top-6 than Gomez.

Likewise, it would be very hard to convince anyone that Pouliot remains a better player/prospect than either S.Kost or D'agostini. If he produced at their levels, we'd be thrilled...


so beyond the fact that all 3 of these players who almost immediately became more valuable assets once we had unloaded them for a pittance, we didn't replace them with a clear upgrade (making the argument that we had no room for them pretty obsolete).

give me Grabs, D'ago and S.Kost over Gomez, Pouliot, and our revolving door top-9 winger(s) any day of the week, and that's on talent/production alone, ignoring the massive salary cap difference.

Congrats. Every team makes mistakes.

Zeroknowledge* 04-10-2011 03:04 AM

Star players score 50-60 points here, it's our system, it's just not fit for offensive minded players, Sk, Grabo and Dags would all be 30-40 point players tops in our system.


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