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-   -   What would GM Messier do differently? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=904211)

I Am Chariot 04-15-2011 11:31 PM

What would GM Messier do differently?
 
I have pretty much accepted that Messier is the next GM of the Rangers. It will be Sathers final move....

So considering Marks ridiculous competitiveness, complete awareness of the pitfalls of great players becoming GM/Coach etc.

What would a Messier team look like? Would he clean house? Start from the ground up? Go Bigger? Faster?

sometimes a great player can really bring their brand of competitiveness to the management position and change the whole face of the team.... look at what Yzerman has done to the Bolts. Granted they sucked bad enough to be a lottery team in key drafts, but still. That team reeks of the FIRE in the belly of the champion

Inferno 04-15-2011 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chariot (Post 32408667)
sometimes a great player can really bring their brand of competitiveness to the management position and change the whole face of the team.... look at what Yzerman has done to the Bolts. Granted they sucked bad enough to be a lottery team in key drafts, but still. That team reeks of the FIRE in the belly of the champion

Yzerman learned how to build a team with the greatest franchise in the NHL bar none.

Messier has learned from Sather. Based on Messiers past, and clear preference of vets, id say we would be worse off.


i wanted Yzerman as our GM so bad... :( Granted Yzerman had: Stamkos, Lecavalier, St. Louis, Hedman, etc just giftwrapped to him.

I Am Chariot 04-15-2011 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno272 (Post 32408762)
Yzerman learned how to build a team with the greatest franchise in the NHL bar none.

Messier has learned from Sather. Based on Messiers past, and clear preference of vets, id say we would be worse off.


i wanted Yzerman as our GM so bad... :( Granted Yzerman had: Stamkos, Lecavalier, St. Louis, Hedman, etc just giftwrapped to him.

Right but lets not just write Messier off. They guy was never a coattails kind of player, even with Gretzky stealing the show. He is a wicked competitor. I'm sure he sees all the challenges Sather has created for himself. Its not like he is going to just do what Sather would do. WWGSD would be an unlikely philosophy for Messier to adopt imo.

I think he is learning the day to day of what it takes to run a team. How he would go about building that team is another story

I Am Chariot 04-15-2011 11:49 PM

I honestly don't know how this team competes against the one time bottom feeders who now have multiple bona fide elite players. We just never suck that bad...

The Islanders are probably next, which is not going to be fun....

Detroits deep Euro scouting mojo is not easily replicated

Free Agency, or TANK..... otherwise its just getting lucky in the later rounds

Look at the roster now. These guys play hard they just dont have the elite skill upfront to get the job done. Yea Gabby is having an off year, but even when he was killin it wasnt enough.

CHGoalie27 04-16-2011 12:08 AM

...what would COACH/GM Messier do differently?

Machinehead 04-16-2011 12:45 AM

Messier, with his reckless competitiveness, would be Sather on crack. Even less patient, with even more bad contracts. I want no part of #11 as GM.

Machinehead 04-16-2011 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chariot (Post 32408993)
I honestly don't know how this team competes against the one time bottom feeders who now have multiple bona fide elite players. We just never suck that bad...

The Islanders are probably next, which is not going to be fun....

Detroits deep Euro scouting mojo is not easily replicated

Free Agency, or TANK..... otherwise its just getting lucky in the later rounds

Look at the roster now. These guys play hard they just dont have the elite skill upfront to get the job done. Yea Gabby is having an off year, but even when he was killin it wasnt enough.

The only way to suck that bad is to accept it. Free agency prevents rebuilding, and free agency is what got us here. It's time to tank, it's been time to tank since we lost Jagr. There's no scoring in the system aside from maybe Kreider who seems quite content jerking off in college until he's 56.

trilobyte 04-16-2011 01:04 AM

The question is not only what would he want to do, but how long would it take for a change to manifest itself?

I guess this is all based on the premise that Messier would be an improvement. It would be hard to be worse, I suppose. Looking at present situation of a soft team full of overrated and probably unrealized potential, he cannot be worse than Sather.

He might go for some big tough guys with skill, gawd forbid.

Ail 04-16-2011 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32409994)
Messier, with his reckless competitiveness, would be Sather on crack. Even less patient, with even more bad contracts. I want no part of #11 as GM.

Yup, personally I feel they are cut from the same cloth. GM Messier probably won't save the Rangers, hopefully the talent scouts will.

jacko23 04-16-2011 07:23 AM

if i remember right, Sather WAS the GM when Mess and Gretz were winning Cups in Edmonton. having sather for a gm at the time when he was most successful and smith as a gm when he got us our last cup, i would say he hasnt had the greatest tutors for gm success. im in the boat of loving #11 as a player, maybe a coach, but i dont think i want him in the front office.

Blueshirt Special 04-16-2011 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32409994)
Messier, with his reckless competitiveness, would be Sather on crack. Even less patient, with even more bad contracts. I want no part of #11 as GM.

I've never called for Mess to be the GM of the Rangers, but...

I can't believe the presumptive nature of some of the posts. This is completely baseless.

Messier was reckless in his competitiveness? I saw it more as methodical, obsessive even. Do you see Sather the same way? Competitive?

On the contrary, Sather has NO interest in icing a truly competitive team. He merely pieces together some players who happen to be available at a convenient moment.

I think Messier would want to win, and would take his responsibility and his legacy very seriously. Hard to say how it would really turn out, and it would be a huge gamble on his part. But so it was the first time he came to Broadway.

But the assumption that he would just be Sather Part II has no basis in fact.

pld459666 04-16-2011 08:26 AM

One thing I think that Mess would do is look to get bigger and a bit more physical on the 3rd line.

Not so much in the fighting department, but bigger, stronger and more physical in terms of wearing down opposing defenceman and forwards.

I Am Chariot 04-16-2011 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32409994)
Messier, with his reckless competitiveness, would be Sather on crack. Even less patient, with even more bad contracts. I want no part of #11 as GM.

Reckless.

2nd all-time in scoring? Six cups? Leadership?

x BEUKEBOOM x 04-16-2011 08:39 AM

Kind of a moot point, but if I had a choice of anyone from the '94 team to be GM now it would be Richter. Only problem is he has political ambitions.

I think it was Messier who said Richter was the kind of guy you wanted to follow onto the ice because of his leadership qualities and work ethic and that coming from "Mr. Leader" himself. And, I believe Mike was always the 1st one on the ice.

There's no question the guy is intelligent and players like him seem to be the ones who succeed when in charge of the team either as coach or GM. The cerebral players see the game differently then the players who win with will and/or talent alone. The thing is Richter was a cerebral player and had some extrordinary talent for a smallish goaltender. In my opinion he could be the idea candidate to make best out of what is currently on the team and within the system + FA market, yet have the vision to 5 or 10 year plan and make personel decisions that will be practical for down the road as well.

Just some food for thought.

White Plains Batman 04-16-2011 08:44 AM

Mess was an influence over many of those horrible trades in the mid-late 90s post-Cup years that shipped out the young kids and brought in vets. He played politics and had favorites in his second tenure as well. Don't get me wrong, I love him for what he did on the ice and always will.

HOWEVER, I've heard him on Sirius talk about drafting and youth development and I'm fine with him as GM as long as Gordie, Gorton, Graves, Luchenko, and Hedberg are here to take care of the scouting and player development.

Dantes19 04-16-2011 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chariot (Post 32408518)
I have pretty much accepted that Messier is the next GM of the Rangers. It will be Sathers final move....

So considering Marks ridiculous competitiveness, complete awareness of the pitfalls of great players becoming GM/Coach etc.

What would a Messier team look like? Would he clean house? Start from the ground up? Go Bigger? Faster?



This, so far, is looking like an almost identical re-hash of the "Messier as Coach/GM" thread from about a month ago. Everyone interested should read the comments posted in that one, because it covers the subject thoroughly.

In short, there's virtually no evidence at this time to suggest that Messier would be a effective GM. There's not a lot disproving the idea either (although being Sather's understudy seems dubious), but at this point he would be a complete unknown. Most of the time, the people supporting the idea of Messier as GM cite elements/attributes from his playing career as reasons why he'd be an effective GM -- even though there's really no direct correlation between being a successful player & successful executive.

Blueblood 2 04-16-2011 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chariot (Post 32412245)
Reckless.

2nd all-time in scoring? Six cups? Leadership?

Ha Ha! How did Phil Esposito do as a GM? How did Bob Clarke do? Zero Cups. That is how they did. Stubborn, bull headed and competitive doesn't necessarily make for a good GM. Quite the contrary.

Blueshirt Special 04-16-2011 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Plains Batman (Post 32412344)
Mess was an influence over many of those horrible trades in the mid-late 90s post-Cup years that shipped out the young kids and brought in vets. He played politics and had favorites in his second tenure as well. Don't get me wrong, I love him for what he did on the ice and always will.

HOWEVER, I've heard him on Sirius talk about drafting and youth development and I'm fine with him as GM as long as Gordie, Gorton, Graves, Luchenko, and Hedberg are here to take care of the scouting and player development.

Mess was also the influence of the trades and coaching change leading up to the winning of the Cup. He can be ruthless and Machiavellian in in his methods to get the right people on the bus.

Is that a bad thing?

ruthless is not the same as reckless.

As far as post Cup, moves were made and everyone involved needs to be accountable to that, but mostly Neil Smith and the volitility of the Keenan effected that.

I also don't buy this assumption that Mess is being schooled by Sather. Messier is his own man and would bring his own style to the table.

ogie 04-16-2011 01:35 PM

Messier will come in and follow the Neil Smith GM playbook, trading away all of our assets for a chance to win that year. Then we will be relegated to 17 years of failure and rebuilding.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 04-16-2011 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chariot (Post 32412245)
Reckless.

2nd all-time in scoring? Six cups? Leadership?

All of which have nothing to do with being able to evaluate talent or building a team.

Enough with 94. Enough with Edmonton. Enough with Messier.

Death By BB Gun 04-16-2011 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogie (Post 32417241)
Messier will come in and follow the Neil Smith GM playbook, trading away all of our assets for a chance to win that year. Then we will be relegated to 17 years of failure and rebuilding.

Mind passing along some lotto numbers? Since you seem to be able to read minds/the future.

BBKers 04-16-2011 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 32417396)
All of which have nothing to do with evaluating talent and building a team.

Enough with 94. Enough with Edmonton. Enough with Messier.

For once - I vividly agree with this poster. Amen.

3Four3 04-16-2011 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 32417396)
All of which have nothing to do with evaluating talent and building a team.

Enough with 94. Enough with Edmonton. Enough with Messier.

Listen, I don't care if the next GM is some schmuck who owns a delicatessen. Time for a change in NY.

If I could, I'd get an owner who at least has some basic knowledge about the sport of hockey.

CHGoalie27 04-16-2011 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueshirt Special (Post 32415384)
Mess was also the influence of the trades and coaching change leading up to the winning of the Cup. He can be ruthless and Machiavellian in in his methods to get the right people on the bus.

Is that a bad thing?

ruthless is not the same as reckless.

As far as post Cup, moves were made and everyone involved needs to be accountable to that, but mostly Neil Smith and the volitility of the Keenan effected that.

I also don't buy this assumption that Mess is being schooled by Sather. Messier is his own man and would bring his own style to the table.

Y'know, I'd say you were wrong if a) we weren't talking about MARK MESSIER, and b)if I was a poster who did not remember or know about Mark Messier.

These people talk of him like he was just some glorified old bag of tears lucky to be with a bunch of awesome guys....and some of us are thinking why him being an old bag of tears is 150% acceptable because those awesome guys wouldn't have won any of it if not for him and his mind.

CHGoalie27 04-16-2011 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogie (Post 32417241)
Messier will come in and follow the Neil Smith GM playbook, trading away all of our assets for a chance to win that year. Then we will be relegated to 17 years of failure and rebuilding.

Beats the hell out of 54! Sign me up for that!

**** those assets in favor of one single cup! ...and don't even let em get dressed before they're kicked out the door!


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