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-   -   Who will be the better NHLer? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=906182)

Inferno 04-21-2011 12:24 AM

Who will be the better NHLer?
 
Poll coming.

Machinehead 04-21-2011 12:26 AM

Zucc all the way. Grachev is soft.

Alvvays 04-21-2011 12:28 AM

Zuccarello is the much safer pick, but if Grachev could ever figure it out mentally, he sounds a lot like Johan Franzen. But for now, MZA.

Inferno 04-21-2011 12:38 AM

went with Grachev...I seem him being a real stud for us on our 3rd line, probably next season, and frankly i dont see MZA being an NHLer on this team. He's too small. His heart is there, but he isn't physically able to do what needs to be done. and he's not fast enough to create separation to let his skill take over. if he gets a WHOLE lot faster, then maybe, but Grachev is big, strong, has wheels, and has skill.

The Dark Passenger 04-21-2011 12:43 AM

The way I look at it, if MZA busts, his size keeps him out of the NHL, whereas if Grachev busts, he as at least has the size to be a 3rd/4th line grinder.

Machinehead 04-21-2011 01:10 AM

Grachev has been in the system since 2008 and has failed to make the team for any extended period of time. Zuccarello joined the organization this year and has made the team for half a season already. Isn't that an indication who the better player is?

Jarkko Immonen 04-21-2011 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32543579)
Grachev has been in the system since 2008 and has failed to make the team for any extended period of time. Zuccarello joined the organization this year and has made the team for half a season already. Isn't that an indication who the better player is?

What a piss poor comparison.

trilobyte 04-21-2011 01:17 AM

I look at MZA and see a player who has been dealing with the pressure of the big leagues, and actually handled it really well. His size was never really recognizable as a shortcoming at all, from what I saw.

Grachev may be a late bloomer, but seriously, NYR has to make its mind up on what they want, and when they want it, from Grachev. Grachev appears like this never appearing distant cloud of potential.

My own view is that if Grachev cannot make the move to the NHL over the first half of next season, just trade him an move on. Be decisive. If he does not progress, NYR should be happy enough to admit one of two things:
1. He isn't going to cut it.
2. NYR is not the organization for him

I think Matts Zuccarello looks much smarter and much more suitable for the NHL than Grachev. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about Grachev's potential.

Jarkko Immonen 04-21-2011 01:22 AM

Tired of hearing about a 21-year-old.

Good lord.

Machinehead 04-21-2011 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarkko Immonen (Post 32543615)
What a piss poor comparison.

I just thought players in the NHL were generally better than players in the AHL. But you're right that's just silly. Clearly the AHL is a superior league.

Machinehead 04-21-2011 01:38 AM

BTW has anyone looked at Grachev's numbers in the minors?

2010: 80GP 12G 16A 28P

2011: 73GP 16G 22A 38P

In the NHL that translates to dumpster scum. And Zuccarello put up 29 Points in 36 game sin the minors; just 11 less in half the time.

Zuccarello > Grachev. Pretty cut and dry.

ColonialsHockey10 04-21-2011 01:41 AM

People should fork over the money and watch Grachev in the AHL. He is a totally different player then he was on his call up to the Rangers. Smart and effective defensively, all over and ice, and he wants the puck. He also dominates in the corners, and looks confident on the power play. He's come a long way.

Zuccarello is better now, but he's older and has played in professional leagues for awhile now. Grachev is still learning, but he's improving and his confidence is getting stronger. 5 months ago I would have voted for Zuccarello, but Grachev has made drastic improvements in his game.

ColonialsHockey10 04-21-2011 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32543822)
BTW has anyone looked at Grachev's numbers in the minors?

2010: 80GP 12G 16A 28P

2011: 73GP 16G 22A 38P

In the NHL that translates to dumpster scum. And Zuccarello put up 29 Points in 36 game sin the minors; just 11 less in half the time.

Zuccarello > Grachev. Pretty cut and dry.

Before his call up the Rangers, Grachev was on pace for like 15 points in the AHL. After he received PK time, and returned from his call up from the Rangers, he was producing at around a 60 points rate.

Watch him play, you will be pleasantly surprised.

This is the exact same argument with McIlrath. He comes out of a game -2 with 0 points, and a bunch of clueless posters begin making assumptions on how he played. People that watch McI in the WHL see how good he is, and are fans. Same thing goes for people that watch AHL games.

nyr2k2 04-21-2011 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32543579)
Grachev has been in the system since 2008 and has failed to make the team for any extended period of time. Zuccarello joined the organization this year and has made the team for half a season already. Isn't that an indication who the better player is?

Pretty clear that the question refers to the future.

I could have said this at the beginning of the year: Gilroy is already in the NHL in his first year with us, whereas Sauer has been in the system for a few years and hasn't made it. Therefore, Gilroy is better than Sauer.

See why that doesn't work?

One can make good arguments for Zuccarello over Grachev. What you just said, though, is not a good argument.

trilobyte 04-21-2011 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarkko Immonen (Post 32543696)
Tired of hearing about a 21-year-old.

Good lord.

That is correct. The last few reports (not just one) from people who have watched his progress have related how much more work he has to do.

It's not that he is 21. Good lord, to use your words, I know age is not a reason to give up on a player. I've been watching lots of prospects come along over the years, and not just those of NYR.

I still think Grachev shows lots of promise, but that's about it . Bring him up, see him almost impress again, and then what?

Machinehead 04-21-2011 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr2k2 (Post 32544129)
Pretty clear that the question refers to the future.

I could have said this at the beginning of the year: Gilroy is already in the NHL in his first year with us, whereas Sauer has been in the system for a few years and hasn't made it. Therefore, Gilroy is better than Sauer.

See why that doesn't work?

One can make good arguments for Zuccarello over Grachev. What you just said, though, is not a good argument.

I must admit you've got me there. Didn't think of it that way. Well played. :surrender

msv957 04-21-2011 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 (Post 32543866)
Before his call up the Rangers, Grachev was on pace for like 15 points in the AHL. After he received PK time, and returned from his call up from the Rangers, he was producing at around a 60 points rate.

Watch him play, you will be pleasantly surprised.

This is the exact same argument with McIlrath. He comes out of a game -2 with 0 points, and a bunch of clueless posters begin making assumptions on how he played. People that watch McI in the WHL see how good he is, and are fans. Same thing goes for people that watch AHL games.

Good post. Same thing with McD when he was playing in the AHL. He had ordinary stats at best in the AHL but once he made the NHL McD seems to fit it quite nicely.
I think some fans were starting to write off McD due his bad stats in his brief stint in the NHL.

TheGrapesOfMcIlrath 04-21-2011 07:47 AM

I'm going to try and bring a little perspective to this.

Brian Boyle is a 2003 1st Rounder. This year, at the age of 26, he finally had his breakout season.

Grachev is a 2008 3rd Rounder. He's 21, and has shown improvement in the AHL from all accounts.

Give him some time.

Both Boyle and Grachev are big guys. For some reason, it often takes big guys longer to learn how to use that big frame and translate it to the NHL. All I want to see from Grachev every year is improvement. So what if it is only a 10P/year improvement in the AHL, it still shows he's getting better. He will crack the Rangers roster at some point. It's only a matter of time. Even if he doesn't develop how we hope, he still has all the physical gifts to make him an effective grinder, and that is decent value from a 3rd Round Draft Pick.

Loto68 04-21-2011 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32543822)
BTW has anyone looked at Grachev's numbers in the minors?

2010: 80GP 12G 16A 28P

2011: 73GP 16G 22A 38P

In the NHL that translates to dumpster scum. And Zuccarello put up 29 Points in 36 game sin the minors; just 11 less in half the time.

Zuccarello > Grachev. Pretty cut and dry.


Just stop speaking right now. Do it, I'll wait. I bet you are one of those delusional people who think Dubi is our next captain and a potential 80 point player. He put up 43 points in 71 games in his only AHL season and he was playing on a far more talented Wolfpack team that included Cally putting up 35 + 20 in 60 games.

94now 04-21-2011 08:18 AM

BTW, the comparison of the midget size sniper with PF is, sorry to point it out, useless.
I wouldn't bet on any of the two. They could make it, but neither will be an elite player. In this case I don't care. If MZA will end up better than Dawes and Grachev will exceed Isbister, they are in. So what?

darko 04-21-2011 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenrikTheKing30 (Post 32543277)
The way I look at it, if MZA busts, his size keeps him out of the NHL, whereas if Grachev busts, he as at least has the size to be a 3rd/4th line grinder.


I agree with this. Going with Grachev.

skroob** 04-21-2011 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32543579)
Grachev has been in the system since 2008 and has failed to make the team for any extended period of time. Zuccarello joined the organization this year and has made the team for half a season already. Isn't that an indication who the better player is?

Yes, how dare he not make the team as a teenager. What a waste! 21 years old and its all down hill from here!!!

offdacrossbar 04-21-2011 08:55 AM

neither will make a difference.

as long as torts is the coach, zuc will be a nobody. he wont get a real chance. and you can take that to the bank.

as long as grachev continues to be clueless on the ice, he will suffer the same fate. i have never been a big grachev guy based entirely on what ive witness in person and on tv. the guy just lacks hockey sense. and this is coming from a big supporter of russian hockey players. problem is, grachev plays more like a big lumbering north american than he does a skilled russian.

im afraid neither will be anything special.

SupersonicMonkey* 04-21-2011 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 32543579)
Grachev has been in the system since 2008 and has failed to make the team for any extended period of time. Zuccarello joined the organization this year and has made the team for half a season already. Isn't that an indication who the better player is?

Grachev is a couple years younger.

Swept In Seven 04-22-2011 01:06 AM

Idk Grachev has massive potential. Zucs does also, but his size will be the reason he doesnt make it if he can not be consistent


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