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-   -   ATD2011 Rene Lecavalier Prelims: (4) Peterborough Petes vs. (5) New Haven Nighthawks (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=906937)

seventieslord 04-22-2011 11:54 PM

ATD2011 Rene Lecavalier Prelims: (4) Peterborough Petes vs. (5) New Haven Nighthawks
 
PETERBOROUGH PETES
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...2lTgdQ2GRg&t=1

GM: chaosrevolver
Coach: Eddie Gerard

Woody Dumart - Frank Nighbor - Mickey MacKay
George Hay - Milt Schmidt - Jim Pappin
Ryan Smyth - Saku Koivu - Anders Hedberg
Butch Keeling - Clarence McKerrow - Jack Findlay
Terry Ruskowski - Willi Plett

Butch Bouchard - Moose Vasko
Graham Drinkwater - Wally Stanowski
John Van Boxmeer - Bucko McDonald
Bob Murray - Jeff Brown

Gerry Cheevers
Mike Karakas


VS

New Haven Nighthawks

Coach: Lindy Ruff

Billy Burch - Jean Ratelle - Rod Gilbert
Rick Martin - Ulf Nilsson - Claude Lemieux
Bob Gainey - Hamby Shore - Odie Cleghorn
Kelly Miller - Mike Fisher - Martin Lapointe
Moose Goheen, Serge Bernier

Doug Wilson - Alexei Kasatonov
Leo Boivin - Charlie Huddy
Reg Hamilton - Lyle Odelein
Roland Stoltz - Lasse Bjorn

Patrick Roy
Wilf Cude

vecens24 04-23-2011 02:19 AM

Honestly the Petes were my second place team in this division in my vote (I'm fairly certain at least). So I'm shocked theyre here. I love their two way first line in particular.

vecens24 04-23-2011 02:37 AM

Maybe I just a higher opinion of Nighbor than most though.

BillyShoe1721 04-23-2011 11:39 AM

I had the Petes third. They appear to be much better suited to the playoffs than the regular season. They have a very strong two-way forward corps that will shine in the playoffs compared to Nighthawks' thrown together BPA forwards that really don't make sense with each other. Roy will have to be huge in this if Nighthawks wants to go anywhere.

TheDevilMadeMe 04-23-2011 12:07 PM

I think nighthawks was trying to put together the GAG line and gave up when he lost out on the chance to draft Hadfield.

Velociraptor 04-23-2011 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 32598155)
I think nighthawks was trying to put together the GAG line and gave up when he lost out on the chance to draft Hadfield.

I'm held responsible for the reason the Nighthawks do not have the GAG line. :laugh:

chaosrevolver 04-23-2011 05:40 PM

Can I still debate on behalf of the Petes?

Velociraptor 04-23-2011 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaosrevolver (Post 32606281)
Can I still debate on behalf of the Petes?

I know the remaining of your picks were not selected by you, but I think you should still be able to assume managership of the team again. Now that you've returned after you provided a legitimate excuse regarding your absence.

TheDevilMadeMe 04-23-2011 05:48 PM

Yes, chaos, you are still co-GM.

seventieslord 04-23-2011 06:10 PM

Absolutely, chaos, I am glad you are back to help your team. Have at 'er!

overpass 04-24-2011 05:28 PM

Peterborough's 1-2 at centre of Nighbor and Schmidt is scary. I don't think the Nighthawks have the centres to match that. Ratelle and ...? As a result I would expect Peterborough to control much of the play.

The Nighthawks have a couple of dangerous wingers in Gilbert and Martin, but the Petes have some good two-way wingers to match them.

Bob Gainey isn't as useful as he could be, as Peterborough's strength is C, not RW.

Looks to me like Patrick Roy will have to steal this one for the Nighthawks. Roy over Cheevers is a pretty big edge. Scoring the first goal will be huge in this series, especially with Peterborough's defensive team design.

Disclaimer: My team plays the winner of this series.

monster_bertuzzi 04-24-2011 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 32594450)
Maybe I just a higher opinion of Nighbor than most though.

Im not fan of Nighbor going around #40.

vecens24 04-24-2011 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi (Post 32632216)
Im not fan of Nighbor going around #40.

Why not?

TheDevilMadeMe 04-24-2011 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 32594450)
Maybe I just a higher opinion of Nighbor than most though.

I'm really starting to agree with sturm that Nighbor is basically Bobby Clarke offensively and defensively, but with a Lady Byng style of play.

overpass 04-24-2011 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 32632969)
I'm really starting to agree with sturm that Nighbor is basically Bobby Clarke offensively and defensively, but with a Lady Byng style of play.

Yeah, Nighbor - Clarke is a reasonable comparison. I was this close to taking Nighbor at #30, but I figured elite offensive talent would be hard to get in a 40 team draft.

TheDevilMadeMe 04-24-2011 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overpass (Post 32633636)
Yeah, Nighbor - Clarke is a reasonable comparison. I was this close to taking Nighbor at #30, but I figured elite offensive talent would be hard to get in a 40 team draft.

Yeah. It seems strange, because that says there is a case to draft Nighbor over Cyclone Taylor or Newsy Lalonde, which completely bucks what we know as historical canon, but... the more we research the era, the more Frank Nighbor's name appears prominently (see the piece I just posted in the dishing the dirt section for example).

chaosrevolver 04-25-2011 11:19 PM

Patrick Roy is someone I can't argue against. He's fantastic..a top-3 goalie of all-time in my opinion and one of the clutchest players ever..Gerry Cheevers isn't better. However, what I will argue is that Cheevers' value goes higher when it comes to the playoffs. First off..53-34, 2.69 GAA, 8 SO. Statistics don't always tell the whole story..I know..especially considering he had a very good team in front of him. So let's pull some quotes out..Joe Pelletier calls him one of the best money goaltenders of all-time and points out a quote from former Bruins GM and Coach Harry Sinden, who said while Bobby Orr and Phil Esposito were valuable to their team, they would never have won those two cups without Gerry. Legends of Hockey also says that he is one of the best clutch goalies of his time, an era that saw some fantastic goalies play between the nets. Cheevers was an entertaining, controversial, relaxed goalie who increased his game in the playoffs. Therefore, he should be looked at as more valuable in this series.

First lines are obviously important...and there are some guys we have to watch out for with the Nighthawks. I love Jean Ratelle and while I don't know much on Burch and Gilbert, I like what I've read about them. One of the joys of the ATD is finding more info about other guys. Speaking of which..Frank Nighbor and Mickey MacKay are two guys I've learned a lot about. Both are tremendous two-way players with speed, a good stick and talent coming from their butts. Woody Dumart I knew a lot about already..Pelletier calls Woody a tremendous defensive winger with a timely scoring touch. Obviously I considered putting Dumart and Schmidt together, cause of their association on the Kraut line, but I actually like him better with Nighbor and MacKay as they all bring the same things to the table. Jean Ratelle is the best forward on the Nighthawks..so good thing I have Nighbor on the other side. He should neutralize Ratelle's offense pretty well. I also am confident MacKay (Nighbor Version 2.0) and Dumart should be able to shut down Burch and Gilbert, even if they are pretty solid offensively. So we know that our line can shut them down, but can they shut ours down? I don't know much on Gilbert and Burch but I'm pretty sure I never read about their defensive accomplishments. So...the plan is to create turnovers using our tremendous sticks and skating ability, and then quickly using that speed to create offense. So yes, these first lines will be matched up whenever we can get that done. I expect they will try and match Bob Gainey on our team, but that's fine. I like Hamby and Odie..but I don't think they can keep up with our first line..and if they can, so be it. At home though (which we play 4 games at..) they won't be against our first line...the Ratelle line will.

Our second line is more defense as well...but Schmidt can create some offense and I like the two guys we have with him. Guess what line that will be on? Yep..their second line. A line that I'm not that impressed with but one I'm forced to respect. Rick Martin is nice and all..but how good will be with without his two other parts of the French Connection. I'm willing to bet that Nilsson and Lemieux are no where near the level of Perreault and Robert. As for that second line of the Nighthawks, Nilsson is a great passer and all..I wanted him with Hedberg. However, Hedberg and Hull were the better two of the three. Nilsson's accomplishments in the NHL are a great proof for that one as he never finished top-10 in goals, assists or points in any of his seasons there. WHA..he had great totals but again, he was with two great linemates (one of which is on my third line) and the WHA also was lower competition. Nilsson is a poor second liner in my book. Lemieux..what the hell? He is not a second line player at the ATD level..no matter if there are 40 teams or 4 teams. Claude has some clutch NHL performances..but sure..I'll gladly play against him if he's on the second line. He's more of a checking winger in my books. Again, I know he led the playoffs twice in goals...but he also had some mediocre playoffs and was never top-10 in goals, assists or points in the regular season. So in my books, he's not a good fit on a second line. He does bring some jam to this line though.

I like your third line, but I like mine too. Hedberg has some inflated stats due to the competition of the WHA but in a role where he shouldn't be up against anyone of great defensive ability, I fully expect that he can contribute a few goals. Feeding him is Saku Koivu..who's a very solid playoff performer that brings great leadership to the squad as well. Ryan Smyth will park himself in front of the net as well and we know what he can do. This line isn't a traditional third line, but I don't need a typical one due to my top-six.

Loving my fourth line. Everyone knows how much I like my pre-1900 guys and Clarence McKerrow and Jack Findlay are two examples of those talents of that era. Clarence McKerrow is called a gentleman, great skater, natural goal-scorer and diligant checker on hockey-notes. He was given 2 retro selke's, led the NHA in goals and points in 1887 and finished second in goals and points in 1896, 1898 and 1899 A two-time stanley cup winner and Lester Patrick's boyhood idol add to the impressive resume McKerrow has. Jack Findlay was a three-time selke winner who is noted as solid offensively..but unfortunately we only really have what Ultimate Hockey has to say about him. Don't know much on Keeling other then that he was consistent, reliable, physical and a clutch goal scorer. He had some teriffic playoff performances including leading the playoffs in goals once. Should add a little extra to this two-way fourth line.

I'll try and get to defense later.

Sturminator 04-25-2011 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 32638340)
Yeah. It seems strange, because that says there is a case to draft Nighbor over Cyclone Taylor or Newsy Lalonde, which completely bucks what we know as historical canon, but... the more we research the era, the more Frank Nighbor's name appears prominently (see the piece I just posted in the dishing the dirt section for example).

There are large holes in the canon. The original ATD followed THN's all-time list quite closely, and how discredited has that document become? I see no argument for Lalonde over Nighbor. Taylor is another bird, but at any rate, Nighbor still goes too low.

TheDevilMadeMe 04-26-2011 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator (Post 32670186)
There are large holes in the canon. The original ATD followed THN's all-time list quite closely, and how discredited has that document become? I see no argument for Lalonde over Nighbor. Taylor is another bird, but at any rate, Nighbor still goes too low.

I believe a lot of it comes from The Trail, which is in love with Lalonde.

overpass 04-26-2011 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator (Post 32670186)
There are large holes in the canon. The original ATD followed THN's all-time list quite closely, and how discredited has that document become? I see no argument for Lalonde over Nighbor. Taylor is another bird, but at any rate, Nighbor still goes too low.

Nighbor's historical reputation probably suffered from the fact that the Ottawa club folded not long after he retired. In contrast, Lalonde's Canadiens went on to become the greatest franchise in hockey history, and Lalonde is remembered today as one of the many great players who played for Montreal.

From reading old newspapers, you can tell that former Ottawa players and Ottawa writers talked up Frank Nighbor for decades after he played, but it's likely that at some point there just wasn't the institutional support to keep his memory going.

vecens24 04-26-2011 01:15 PM

Good question I have for you Sturm:

Had Nighbor not been taken the selection before you take Coffey....who do you go with? Because from drafting with you for like 4 months now I would have thought Coffey to not exactly be your kind of guy, just a guy who fell into your lap.

BM67 04-26-2011 02:34 PM

I think Lalonde being far and away the highest scorer of the pre-merger era has a lot to do with his standing.

From the Hockey Compendium:

Top 20 Scorers, 1909-1926
  GPGAP
1Newsey Lalonde ('10-26>)296362*81443
2Joe Malone ('09-24)27334358401
3Cy Denneny ('15-26>)25925882340
4Frank Nighbor ('13-26>)28723896334
5Frank Foyston ('13-26>)29722372295
6Cyclone Taylor ('09-23)169189104*293
7Mickey MacKay ('15-26>)24719892290

10% lead on Malone and 30% on Denneny. Denneny only added 29 points after 1926. Nighbor added 32, and MacKay added 63 to also remain on the 1940 leader board.

His 362 goals wasn't passed until Richard did it in 54-55.

As I said in the HOH Top 100 project where do you rank a Ted Lindsay with 5 goal scoring titles?

Jafar 04-27-2011 01:28 PM

I think Roy will make the differance in that one

Stoneberg 04-28-2011 12:26 AM

Peterborough defeats New Haven 2 games to 1.

3 stars:
1. Roy
2. Nighbor
3. Schmidt


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