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-   -   Are we investing to much $ on D? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=907253)

not quite yoda 04-23-2011 11:58 PM

Are we investing to much $ on D?
 
sure we play a strong defensive game but that is partly because we have to. aside from cammalleri and gionta we have no natural goal scorers. we are not a team that can outscore teams in high scoring games on a regular basis.

many here blame martin for his boring system but what choice does he have really? martin can only play the cards he is dealt.

markov 5.75
hamrlik 5.5
spacek 3.8
gill 2.2
wiz 3.4

and you ca imagine how much we are going to have to pay subban.

those are a lot of big tickets we are choosing NOT to spend on goal scorers.

TheBuriedHab 04-24-2011 12:01 AM

No, we are just giving the wrong people money. If your going to sign some ufa dmen to big money please let them be under 30 or atleast hovering around 30. Not a 35 year old spacek and give him 3 years at 3.8.

The Kremelin Wall* 04-24-2011 12:02 AM

7.3 Gomez
6 Cammalleri
5 Gionta
5 Plekanec
3.25 Kostitsyn

Imagine if we invested that in top defensemen :sarcasm:

not quite yoda 04-24-2011 12:08 AM

check other teams' cap hits. other teams spend more on 2M+ fwds than we do. most do anyways. other teams have more scoring depth than we do.

keeping the puck out for as long as possible is great. but if you have no one to bury the game winner... we re gonna feel like this again.

Miller Time 04-24-2011 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not quite yoda (Post 32617704)
check other teams' cap hits. other teams spend more on 2M+ fwds than we do. most do anyways. other teams have more scoring depth than we do.

keeping the puck out for as long as possible is great. but if you have no one to bury the game winner... we re gonna feel like this again.

a lot easier to spend on better quality scoring/forward depth when you aren't paying 7.4M$ for a third liner!


i think the problem with our roster (as many have been pointing out since the '09 re-tool) is that we have way too much money invested in players unable to play up to the cap hit we've allocated to them.

Hamrlik, Spacek, Gomez are all CLEARLY overpaid by pretty large margins.

We can fix the Hamrlik situation in the offseason, which will help, but if the team is going to try to get better by next opening day, we'll need to move one or both of Gomez/Spacek and then find a way to re-invest that cap space in players that can fill some of our needs.

McNuts 04-24-2011 12:17 AM

Hamrlik wasn't that overpaid on the first year of his contract but now he brutally is.

not quite yoda 04-24-2011 12:19 AM

yup we do and you know what? when hamrlik and spacek move on to other things those spare $$ will be invested in locking up price and subban. we re going in circles.

we need to free up cap hits on D to acquire scorers.

Watsatheo 04-24-2011 12:25 AM

We invested too much on old D. This summer Gauthier will have the opportunity to revamp the D.

We have the core of:

#1 Andrei Markov (32)
#2 PK Subban (21)
#3
#4
#5 Josh Gorges (26)
#6 Hal Gill (36) *we need one vet slow or not, keep the one with a cup ring and leadership*
#7 Yannick Weber (22)

We need to replace (not that they're bad, but collectively they make our D slow):
#3 Roman Hamrlik (37) 5.5mil
#4 Jaroslav Spacek (37) 3.83mil

I don't who but we need to get a couple D late 20s/early 30s that can skate relatively well. One that is a 2way D that plays a bit of an edge (basically a younger Hamrlik), the other that play on the PP (perhaps Wisniewski)

slimkay 04-24-2011 12:41 AM

Price and Subban will probably cost close to (or even more than) $10m together (in terms of cap hit) so you have to keep that in mind.

Garo 04-24-2011 01:07 AM

I'm not sure why the OP is counting both Markov and Wiz.

LeMAD 04-24-2011 01:38 AM

We have having some troubles at drafting/developping defensemen, so we had to pay the price for UFAs.

tinyzombies 04-24-2011 01:49 AM

I don't agree. Spacek and Hammer have done very well for us. Spacek was amazing in the playoffs last year. Hammer has carried the no. 1 job for two years now and we are a playoff team even with injuries. nuff said.

I think the clock is ticking on Hammer going forward though. Spacek too.

I pray that Markov will come back for another three year deal and be healthy enough to be himself for those three years. We'll see.

Markov in, Hammer out is a monster step up.

The real problem is Gomez.

Miller Time 04-24-2011 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeMAD (Post 32618796)
We have having some troubles at drafting/developping defensemen, so we had to pay the price for UFAs.

yeah, too bad we aren't as good as a team like the Rangers at finding gems like Ryan Mcdonnaugh or Pavel Valentenko...

or

as adept at developing young talent like the Avalanche were with Ryan O'byrne...

(no sarcasm smiley needed I hope)

yeah, i think looking at this current roster, the more accurate truth is that the power's that be were "too smart for their own good" and got too excited with the '09 cap space. As a result they went out and spent big money on UFA's, while shipping away some of the young talent we had drafted AND ensuring that there would be no room to allow for the progression of the young talent we were developing.

think of it this way...

take away the Gomez trade and the Spacek signing, and ignoring what might have been done with the 8-10M$ in cap space to otherwise improve the team, look at the D we'd very realistically have:

Markov
Subban
Hamrlik
Gorges
McDo
Gill
O'Byrne (good enough for 20min/g for the avs, betting he could handle 14-15 for us)

with weber and valentenko leading the bulldogs

or, with the injuries we ended up having

Subban
Hamrlik
McDo
Gill
O'Byrne
Weber/Sopel
Valentenko


yeah, either way we'd be WAY WAY WAY better off, not too mention having Koivu (6pts in 5 playoff games) instead of Gomez (3 pts/5 games).... good thing we went with the "clutch playoff performer" instead of sticking with the guy who was "over the hill" :sarcasm:

god, as a fan it makes you want to cry.

'09, the offseason that keeps giving and giving and giving (and will continue giving for as long as McDo, and eventually Valentenko, are strutting their stuff on broadway

ECWHSWI 04-24-2011 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller Time (Post 32618933)
yeah, too bad we aren't as good as a team like the Rangers at finding gems like Ryan Mcdonnaugh or Pavel Valentenko...


Valentenko a -> gem ?

FiveForDrawingBlood 04-24-2011 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not quite yoda (Post 32617449)
sure we play a strong defensive game but that is partly because we have to. aside from cammalleri and gionta we have no natural goal scorers. we are not a team that can outscore teams in high scoring games on a regular basis.

many here blame martin for his boring system but what choice does he have really? martin can only play the cards he is dealt.

markov 5.75
hamrlik 5.5
spacek 3.8
gill 2.2
wiz 3.4

and you ca imagine how much we are going to have to pay subban.

those are a lot of big tickets we are choosing NOT to spend on goal scorers.

Where is this big time goal scorer suppose to come from?

Any team in NHL today who loses a star like Markov. Odds of winning are greatly declined. Boston is a good team, we have very little chance. Price stole a couple of games in Boston but can't count on that every game

Habs 4 Life 04-24-2011 05:28 AM

We gave up a little too fast on McDonagh and made a mistake by drafting Fisher but drafting wise it hasn't been that bad in the last couple of years. We just overpay for players, now is it cause we don't have a choice to attract these players here or because management has no idea what these players are really worth? We will see in a few months, with what 75% or our D's being UFA

jlgib21* 04-24-2011 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life (Post 32619535)
We gave up a little too fast on McDonagh and made a mistake by drafting Fisher but drafting wise it hasn't been that bad in the last couple of years. We just overpay for players, now is it cause we don't have a choice to attract these players here or because management has no idea what these players are really worth? We will see in a few months, with what 75% or our D's being UFA

Our drafting of defense has been HORRIBLE the last few years. P.K is a star,but who else have we got ? Weber is unproven,5'9 and can't crack this crappy defense line-up. There is nothing to talk about in Hamilton,and Tinordi is a project,who we really need to be a top 4

Habs 4 Life 04-24-2011 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlgib21 (Post 32619689)
Our drafting of defense has been HORRIBLE the last few years. P.K is a star,but who else have we got ? Weber is unproven,5'9 and can't crack this crappy defense line-up. There is nothing to talk about in Hamilton,and Tinordi is a project,who we really need to be a top 4

Kind of hard to crack the lineup when the gm keeps getting defencemans . He got Mara, Sopel at the deadline, where do you want Weber to play? We also traded O'Byrne earlier this year same reason no space for him, it hasn't been great but not horrible well IMO

jlgib21* 04-24-2011 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life (Post 32619773)
Kind of hard to crack the lineup when the gm keeps getting defencemans . He got Mara, Sopel at the deadline, where do you want Weber to play? We also traded O'Byrne earlier this year same reason no space for him, it hasn't been great but not horrible well IMO

But why do we keep getting the Sopel's and Mara's.Because the org. doesn't think there's anything better in the system. I think it was a huge mistake dumping O'Byrne,as it was plain that JM just didn't like him. He had all kinds of upside,and brought alot of what we're lacking on the back end.I thought that Carle was ok also,but again he's not in JM's plans

Habs 4 Life 04-24-2011 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlgib21 (Post 32619804)
But why do we keep getting the Sopel's and Mara's.Because the org. doesn't think there's anything better in the system. I think it was a huge mistake dumping O'Byrne,as it was plain that JM just didn't like him. He had all kinds of upside,and brought alot of what we're lacking on the back end.I thought that Carle was ok also,but again he's not in JM's plans

It's pretty clear that Martin prefers the experience over the youth but it's also up to the GM to stop going after these types of players and tell the coach work with what you've got. 2 years ago I thought in that 4 games sweep of the bruins, I thought Weber was our best D and was going to be given a chance by management, Instead Gainey went and signed Spacek, Gill, did we really need Spacek? No is my answer. O'Byrne I never thought anything special of him to be honest but I really hope we don't make the same mistake with Weber cause I really think he has a future in this league

Monctonscout 04-24-2011 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not quite yoda (Post 32617449)
sure we play a strong defensive game but that is partly because we have to. aside from cammalleri and gionta we have no natural goal scorers. we are not a team that can outscore teams in high scoring games on a regular basis.

many here blame martin for his boring system but what choice does he have really? martin can only play the cards he is dealt.

markov 5.75
hamrlik 5.5
spacek 3.8
gill 2.2
wiz 3.4

and you ca imagine how much we are going to have to pay subban.

those are a lot of big tickets we are choosing NOT to spend on goal scorers.

TB is the perfect example of a ton of skill up front and a weak D, you won't win anything with a crappy defense.

Hamrlik got big bucks because we didn't have much on defense back then. I think defense is a very good place to spend the $$ but obviously in the next few years it should be on younger sub-30 d-men(Wiz Subban Weber Gorges Yemelin etc). Last night with Wisniewski missing a full period we had 4 of 5 d-men at or above 35 years old.

Habs 4 Life 04-24-2011 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carey Price (Post 32619948)
TB is the perfect example of a ton of skill up front and a weak D, you won't win anything with a crappy defense.

Hamrlik got big bucks because we didn't have much on defense back then. I think defense is a very good place to spend the $$ but obviously in the next few years it should be on younger sub-30 d-men(Wiz Subban Weber Gorges Yemelin etc). Last night with Wisniewski missing a full period we had 4 of 5 d-men at or above 35 years old.

They also have a weak goalie, you put Price with the Bolts they are winning that series right now, Roloson has been horrible especially that OT winner by Neal in game 4

Monctonscout 04-24-2011 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not quite yoda (Post 32617952)
yup we do and you know what? when hamrlik and spacek move on to other things those spare $$ will be invested in locking up price and subban. we re going in circles.

we need to free up cap hits on D to acquire scorers.

We have good scorers, we just need to have them better surrounded. Obviously a healthy Patchesioretty would go a long way to that. When you lose a 200+lbs guy with skill who is among your top players, that hurts your top 6.

That being said, people are barking up the wrong tree here, if something costs us this series it's not scoring, it's shoddy defensive play in game 4 and part of game 3 where we gave 3-4 goals without Boston earning them.

FiveForDrawingBlood 04-24-2011 08:01 AM

Tampa was terrible team for years acquiring top picks for these players. That is not very good model to follow. Unless you want to sacrifice 5 years?

Where's all these top forwards to come from? Teams don't trade those kind of players. Tried the trade route before in Gomez. Free agency before in Gionta and Cammalleri. The Tampa route will take 5 years at least to build up.

The team is relatively alright. With way parity is in league few teams can take key injuries like the Habs have and stay in Cup contention. Just can't do it. Being healthy is a factor in playoffs.

Chicago and Philly in Cup finals last year were top 2 teams with best defense.

WeThreeKings 04-24-2011 08:30 AM

We have invested too much money on the wrong D.

Gill is the only one I want back from the three free agent signings.
I'd like for money to be thrown at Ehrhoff, if not, then spend on Wisniewski or Pitkanen.

Markov-Gorges
Subban-Gill
Ehrhoff/Pitkanen/Wisniewski-Weber
Mara


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