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FLYERSxGIROUX28 05-05-2011 09:15 PM

Our window of opportunity and opinion on what we should do in the offseason
 
So, I have had this thought that scares me. Think back to when the league investigated Pronger's contract, and how excited everyone was when his contract was seen to be "legally" circumventing the salary cap. I think we should not be that excited now. No, I am not insane. Just hear me out. I know Pronger is one of the best defensemen the NHL has ever seen. But I also know that the NHL is a business and a numbers game. Pronger is becoming pretty frail, and was not playing at all well this season. I'm not saying he is done, because he isn't, but obviously he is on the decline. We have him signed into his forties, 42-43 iirc. He is going to become ineffective and we will have to pay the same cap hit due to his contract that legally circumvents the cap. In addition, we are in a similar situation with briere. We have him locked up for too long, and we are going to be paying him 6.5m when he is no longer effective. So, in theory, we are paying Pronger and Briere a combined (approximately) one sixth of our salary cap (6.5m per + 4.9 per) and will continue to pay them this as they decline. This worries me about our window of opportunity. I think we are going to go through a period where we are still competitive, but completely incapable of winning a cup. I estimate that period to be 2-3 years away. Which leads me to the offseason. Let me start by saying I DO NOT like Richards, at all. I feel he is one of the most overrated players in the league, he is lazy, and he is overpaid (especially when you look at his actual salary instead of his cap hit, 8.4m next season!!!!!). Everyone hates on carter and says he should be moved, but I feel holmgren has proven by now that he likes him too much to move him. In addition, Giroux (best player on the team) and JVR are the future of the team, and carter and giroux have mad chemistry, that line is straight dirty. Now, I'm not saying we will move richards, but that is what I would want to see happen. I'm tired of hearing the newest "he's hurt" stories every time he is in a slump. I think Bob will be that guy in net, and could be next year, but i dont want to take that risk with what, in my opinion, is a 2-3 years long window of opportunity. I would like to see us make a push for vokoun. I have read that bryzgalov wants longer-term higher salary.
This is what i WANT to see happen. This is not what I believe is going to happen.
So, with all of that being said, what do you think will happen, and what would you like to see happen.
Oh, one last thing, I wouldn't mind seeing us acquire nabokov's rights if a better goalie can't happen.

StandingCow 05-05-2011 09:19 PM

Wall of text crits you for 10k damage!

FLYERSxGIROUX28 05-05-2011 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StandingCow (Post 32891463)
Wall of text crits you for 10k damage!

umm... what? haha

tuckrr 05-05-2011 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StandingCow (Post 32891463)
Wall of text crits you for 10k damage!

:handclap:

maybe his enter key is broken? :sarcasm:

Tags27 05-05-2011 09:26 PM

Quote:

So, I have had this thought that scares me. Think back to when the league investigated Pronger's contract, and how excited everyone was when his contract was seen to be "legally" circumventing the salary cap. I think we should not be that excited now. No, I am not insane. Just hear me out.

I know Pronger is one of the best defensemen the NHL has ever seen. But I also know that the NHL is a business and a numbers game. Pronger is becoming pretty frail, and was not playing at all well this season. I'm not saying he is done, because he isn't, but obviously he is on the decline. We have him signed into his forties, 42-43 iirc. He is going to become ineffective and we will have to pay the same cap hit due to his contract that legally circumvents the cap.

In addition, we are in a similar situation with briere. We have him locked up for too long, and we are going to be paying him 6.5m when he is no longer effective. So, in theory, we are paying Pronger and Briere a combined (approximately) one sixth of our salary cap (6.5m per + 4.9 per) and will continue to pay them this as they decline. This worries me about our window of opportunity. I think we are going to go through a period where we are still competitive, but completely incapable of winning a cup. I estimate that period to be 2-3 years away.

Which leads me to the offseason. Let me start by saying I DO NOT like Richards, at all. I feel he is one of the most overrated players in the league, he is lazy, and he is overpaid (especially when you look at his actual salary instead of his cap hit, 8.4m next season!!!!!). Everyone hates on carter and says he should be moved, but I feel holmgren has proven by now that he likes him too much to move him.

In addition, Giroux (best player on the team) and JVR are the future of the team, and carter and giroux have mad chemistry, that line is straight dirty. Now, I'm not saying we will move richards, but that is what I would want to see happen. I'm tired of hearing the newest "he's hurt" stories every time he is in a slump.

I think Bob will be that guy in net, and could be next year, but i dont want to take that risk with what, in my opinion, is a 2-3 years long window of opportunity. I would like to see us make a push for vokoun. I have read that bryzgalov wants longer-term higher salary.
This is what i WANT to see happen. This is not what I believe is going to happen.

So, with all of that being said, what do you think will happen, and what would you like to see happen.
Oh, one last thing, I wouldn't mind seeing us acquire nabokov's rights if a better goalie can't happen.
You gotta pay to play. That was the going rate the years they signed Briere, Timonen & Pronger.

tuckrr 05-05-2011 09:26 PM

from what i managed to read I would say this:
those two contracts have ALWAYS been my biggest fear, but now i think Danny Briere is going to actually be decent through most (or all) of his contract...and when it gets iffy Carters/richards mega-contracts will be more of a steal and off-set the cost.

also, pronger just needs a longer off-season to be good...hes been a work horse and hasnt had a few months to really TRULY get healthy.

(he was injured before the season even started!)

FLYERSFAN18 05-05-2011 09:46 PM

Do any of you guys think that Timonen might retire after this season or next?

Don't go nuts. I am not saying this is what I want to happen, but every year towards the middle or end of the playoffs he says that he's getting tired. And it seems that this year it is kind of showing. Usually, even when the rest of the team is playing bad he still plays well. But recently he hasn't looked great (far from the worst player on the team but certainly not one of the best).

So do you think he might be considering retirement to go back to finland as a result of this wear and tear and the fact that there is always a hole in this team thay holmgren fails to improve til its too late.

I dont want him to, but it would clear up a good chunk of cap space.

StandingCow 05-05-2011 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 (Post 32892147)
Do any of you guys think that Timonen might retire after this season or next?

Don't go nuts. I am not saying this is what I want to happen, but every year towards the middle or end of the playoffs he says that he's getting tired. And it seems that this year it is kind of showing. Usually, even when the rest of the team is playing bad he still plays well. But recently he hasn't looked great (far from the worst player on the team but certainly not one of the best).

So do you think he might be considering retirement to go back to finland as a result of this wear and tear and the fact that there is always a hole in this team thay holmgren fails to improve til its too late.

I dont want him to, but it would clear up a good chunk of cap space.

I was thinking about this... but can players retired before their contract is up?

FLYERSFAN18 05-05-2011 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StandingCow (Post 32892206)
I was thinking about this... but can players retired before their contract is up?

Yea, 99% positive the cap hit won't count anymore unless they are a 35 plus contract

46zone 05-05-2011 09:55 PM

2-3 years is a long way off, bud. If they win a cup before then I won't care if they're just competitive for a couple years following it. That said, Homer needs to make some moves this off-season. The obvious one is bringing in a goalie. I don't care if it's Vokoun, Bryzgalov, Roloson, etc. as long as they bring one in and I have a gut feeling they will. In order to do that some people will need to be moved, such as Carle, Versteeg, or Hartnell.

We're going to have to sacrifice some of Homer's precious depth, but if it leads to getting a legitimate starting goalie then it is worth it. You can't win the cup with average goaltending and a "stacked" team....as we've seen.

BillyShoe1721 05-05-2011 09:56 PM

Timonen has stated multiple times he will very likely retire when his contract is up. The hate for Richards and Carter I'm hearing from people recently is mind blowing. I guarantee you Richards is playing hurt right now, and will likely have offseason surgery.

FLYERSFAN18 05-05-2011 10:02 PM

The Flyers arent getting rid of Giroux, JVR, Richards, or Carter. That is the core for now and for the future. They arent going to trade player who have decade long contracts. And they have shown that they arent going to trade JVR or giroux when they were the subject of trade rumors in the past. The only one i could see them trading out of the top six (which i consider to be Richards, carter, giroux, JVR, briere and hartnell) is hartnell and i kind of doubt that they do that because of what he brings to the team. There is really no one on the roster that has the same size and skill set. This team becomes kind of small without him. The only way they trade him is if they find a cheaper, better version of him.

FLYERSFAN18 05-05-2011 10:40 PM

This team has such a bright future going forward, just as much as pitt, washington. chicago, vancouver.

All Holmgren has to do is not **** it up. But I know its hard for him. He has the core on offense.

Just stop wasting every high draft pick we have and dont spend huge in free agency unless it is someone that is really worth it (i.e. Ryan suter if nashville cant retain him for some reason). We need some picks to replenish our system. Id trade Versteeg, Carle, and the rights to leino if anyone wants them for picks and prospects, thus creating a large amount of cap space in the mean time.

If you ask me we have 7 that id like to bring back (richards, Carter, Giroux, jvr, briere, hartnell, and nodle). We dont have to have 9 allstar forwards to win. Now if he can take these seven next year and add a grity winger like larose from carolina and let some prospects battle it out for the other spot we will be okay.

I dont see us making a conventional third line. I see three pairs with other interchangin parts.

Nodl-Richards-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Larose
Hartnell-Carter-Welwood
Powe-Betts-Rinaldo (just get shelley off the team for christ sake 600,000 less to do the exact same thing. Although im not a big rinaldo fan).

Just get rid of carle for picks and/or fifth defenseman. And let a prospect get the sixth or seventh spot

Pronger-Coburn
Meszaros-Timonen
Gustaffson-Vet
Bartulius

Just get vokoun

Vokoun
Bob

Evryone just needs to play within their own game and this team can win. Improved goaltending and defense since carle is such a defensive liability. This way we dont have to score five goals a game to win. Not evry forward has to be a 60 point player.

sa cyred 05-05-2011 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 32892499)
Timonen has stated multiple times he will very likely retire when his contract is up. The hate for Richards and Carter I'm hearing from people recently is mind blowing. I guarantee you Richards is playing hurt right now, and will likely have offseason surgery.

Won't lie, it seems like every offseason he has a surgery already planned. Im obviously noton the Carter/Richards sucks boat, but the small thing that does annoy me, is that it always seems like they get hurt in playoffs (well in Carter's case, he is always hurt in playoffs). I know its not really their fault, but still is kinda annoying.

dbr2 05-05-2011 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 (Post 32893603)
This team has such a bright future going forward, just as much as pitt, washington. chicago, vancouver.

All Holmgren has to do is not **** it up. But I know its hard for him. He has the core on offense.

Just stop wasting every high draft pick we have and dont spend huge in free agency unless it is someone that is really worth it (i.e. Ryan suter if nashville cant retain him for some reason). We need some picks to replenish our system. Id trade Versteeg, Carle, and the rights to leino if anyone wants them for picks and prospects, thus creating a large amount of cap space in the mean time.

If you ask me we have 7 that id like to bring back (richards, Carter, Giroux, jvr, briere, hartnell, and nodle). We dont have to have 9 allstar forwards to win. Now if he can take these seven next year and add a grity winger like larose from carolina and let some prospects battle it out for the other spot we will be okay.

I dont see us making a conventional third line. I see three pairs with other interchangin parts.

Nodl-Richards-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Larose
Hartnell-Carter-Welwood
Powe-Betts-Rinaldo (just get shelley off the team for christ sake 600,000 less to do the exact same thing. Although im not a big rinaldo fan).

Just get rid of carle for picks and/or fifth defenseman. And let a prospect get the sixth or seventh spot

Pronger-Coburn
Meszaros-Timonen
Gustaffson-Vet
Bartulius

Just get vokoun

Vokoun
Bob

Evryone just needs to play within their own game and this team can win. Improved goaltending and defense since carle is such a defensive liability. This way we dont have to score five goals a game to win. Not evry forward has to be a 60 point player.


Also, getting Vokoun would be great, however, not sure if we can afford him.

Tags27 05-05-2011 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 (Post 32893603)
This team has such a bright future going forward, just as much as pitt, washington. chicago, vancouver.

All Holmgren has to do is not **** it up. But I know its hard for him. He has the core on offense.

Just stop wasting every high draft pick we have and dont spend huge in free agency unless it is someone that is really worth it (i.e. Ryan suter if nashville cant retain him for some reason). We need some picks to replenish our system. Id trade Versteeg, Carle, and the rights to leino if anyone wants them for picks and prospects, thus creating a large amount of cap space in the mean time.

If you ask me we have 7 that id like to bring back (richards, Carter, Giroux, jvr, briere, hartnell, and nodle). We dont have to have 9 allstar forwards to win. Now if he can take these seven next year and add a grity winger like larose from carolina and let some prospects battle it out for the other spot we will be okay.

I dont see us making a conventional third line. I see three pairs with other interchangin parts.

Nodl-Richards-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Larose
Hartnell-Carter-Welwood
Powe-Betts-Rinaldo (just get shelley off the team for christ sake 600,000 less to do the exact same thing. Although im not a big rinaldo fan).

Just get rid of carle for picks and/or fifth defenseman. And let a prospect get the sixth or seventh spot

Pronger-Coburn
Meszaros-Timonen
Gustaffson-Vet
Bartulius

Just get vokoun

Vokoun
Bob

Evryone just needs to play within their own game and this team can win. Improved goaltending and defense since carle is such a defensive liability. This way we dont have to score five goals a game to win. Not evry forward has to be a 60 point player.

Sestito?

Pantokrator 05-06-2011 12:06 AM

My concern with trading Matt Carle is that I don't think the Flyers could get a better defenseman for that money. I think if they need to reduce the salary in order to get a goalie, they ought to see if they can lose salary from the forwards. I would rather have depth on defense than at forward. Last year in the playoffs, the veteran defensemen were played too much because of the lack of depth.

If the Flyers did not sign any of their free agents, restricted or unrestricted, and filled those positions with very low salaried players (800k or less), would they have enough money available to pay 5 million for a goalie?

I also don't think trading for a goalie is acceptable, since obviously teams will not part with a top rated #1 goalie, and trading for unproven or semi-proven backups is as big a gamble as going into the post-season with Bobrovsky.

rayearth 05-06-2011 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StandingCow (Post 32891463)
Wall of text crits you for 10k damage!

China called. They want their wall back.

fauxflex 05-06-2011 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantokrator (Post 32894714)
My concern with trading Matt Carle is that I don't think the Flyers could get a better defenseman for that money. I think if they need to reduce the salary in order to get a goalie, they ought to see if they can lose salary from the forwards. I would rather have depth on defense than at forward. Last year in the playoffs, the veteran defensemen were played too much because of the lack of depth.

If the Flyers did not sign any of their free agents, restricted or unrestricted, and filled those positions with very low salaried players (800k or less), would they have enough money available to pay 5 million for a goalie?

I also don't think trading for a goalie is acceptable, since obviously teams will not part with a top rated #1 goalie, and trading for unproven or semi-proven backups is as big a gamble as going into the post-season with Bobrovsky.


There are a couple of top flight young goalies stuck behind #1s in Bernier and Schneider. I grade both of them over Bob. They are more seasoned and acclimated to the North American game. These are potentially the types of franchise goalies that don't become available often and I would consider a trade if they can be obtained. Either use one to upgrade over Bob (send Bob to AHL) and bring in a vet backup (Nabby Roloson Turco Giggy) or roll with Bob and the other young stud and let them battle for number 1.

infidelappel* 05-06-2011 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fauxflex (Post 32902796)
There are a couple of top flight young goalies stuck behind #1s in Bernier and Schneider. I grade both of them over Bob. They are more seasoned and acclimated to the North American game. These are potentially the types of franchise goalies that don't become available often and I would consider a trade if they can be obtained. Either use one to upgrade over Bob (send Bob to AHL) and bring in a vet backup (Nabby Roloson Turco Giggy) or roll with Bob and the other young stud and let them battle for number 1.

Neither of them are really better established than Bob. They've been around the North American game longer, but Bob has more NHL experience than both in terms of games played...do they have higher pedigrees? Absolutely. More natural talent? Not necessarily.

I wouldn't be so quick to sell Bob short...they are both probably ahead of him on the development curve, but it doesn't make sense to overpay for either when you have a kid who may be just as good.

sa cyred 05-06-2011 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fauxflex (Post 32902796)
There are a couple of top flight young goalies stuck behind #1s in Bernier and Schneider. I grade both of them over Bob. They are more seasoned and acclimated to the North American game. These are potentially the types of franchise goalies that don't become available often and I would consider a trade if they can be obtained. Either use one to upgrade over Bob (send Bob to AHL) and bring in a vet backup (Nabby Roloson Turco Giggy) or roll with Bob and the other young stud and let them battle for number 1.

Other than being drafted, what have these two proven more than Bob has?

I said it before, Bernier and Schneider are riding on fluff atm. They havent proven more than Bob has.

Cartsiephan* 05-06-2011 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 (Post 32892635)
The Flyers arent getting rid of Giroux, JVR, Richards, or Carter. That is the core for now and for the future. They arent going to trade player who have decade long contracts. And they have shown that they arent going to trade JVR or giroux when they were the subject of trade rumors in the past. The only one i could see them trading out of the top six (which i consider to be Richards, carter, giroux, JVR, briere and hartnell) is hartnell and i kind of doubt that they do that because of what he brings to the team. There is really no one on the roster that has the same size and skill set. This team becomes kind of small without him. The only way they trade him is if they find a cheaper, better version of him.

Problem is when the core is rotten, what do you do?



http://media.philly.com/images/050411-flyers-400.jpghttp://mobilwi.typepad.com/.a/6a0120...ce66970c-800wi

Cartsiephan* 05-06-2011 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa cyred (Post 32893828)
Won't lie, it seems like every offseason he has a surgery already planned. Im obviously noton the Carter/Richards sucks boat, but the small thing that does annoy me, is that it always seems like they get hurt in playoffs (well in Carter's case, he is always hurt in playoffs). I know its not really their fault, but still is kinda annoying.

The recurring, "Richards must be injured, probably shoulder" is starting to irk me. I know these guys have down time and need some time to recharge their batteries. I am all for that. But guys who want to win still take time to focus on working on their weaknesses, or in Richards case strengthen the shoulder and body so come May/June they are not worn down, fatigued.

sa cyred 05-06-2011 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cartsiephan (Post 32903108)
Problem is when the core is rotten, what do you do?



http://media.philly.com/images/050411-flyers-400.jpg

Trade everyone! **** it. Kick the team out of from Philly! Maybe go to Kansas City or something. Or the Flyers could fold all together. All these are good choices.

Cartsiephan* 05-06-2011 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa cyred (Post 32902967)
Other than being drafted, what have these two proven more than Bob has?

I said it before, Bernier and Schneider are riding on fluff atm. They havent proven more than Bob has.

Both have won and put up solid numbers in NA hockey. Schneider has made a better progression to the NHL level at this time, but Bernier is going to be a good NHL goalie sooner than Bobrovsky IMO.


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