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-   -   Zednik files for arbitration (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=91549)

growne 07-15-2004 05:14 PM

Zednik files for arbitration
 
Richard Zednik ira en arbitrage
Richard Zednik a décidé de se prévaloir de son droit à l'arbitrage.
Il est toujours sans contrat pour la saison prochaine et les négociations n'ont rien donné jusqu'à présent.

Reste que son agent, David Schatia, ne ferme pas la porte et les pourparlers vont se poursuivre d'ici à ce que les deux partis se retrouvent devant un arbitre.

Zednik a amassé 50 points, dont 26 buts, la saison dernière. Par ailleurs, Alex Tanguay, de l'Avalanche du Colorado, va aussi passer devant un arbitre au cours des prochaines semaines.

http://www.rds.ca/cgi-bin/nouvelles?...=LNHCAN#104916

x-bob 07-15-2004 05:16 PM

What does it mean when they file for arbritation? I nevber understood what arbritation was.

Des Louise 07-15-2004 05:17 PM

All bets are on... how much will he get ?

He got a lot of goals the past 3 seasons (70-75) and was even better in the post season. I say 2.5M$-3M$.

growne 07-15-2004 05:19 PM

Zednik's been doing a great job on a very small salary. I hope we can retain him with a low salary, as in my opinion we get more out of each dollar with him than with most other players in the NHL. On the other hand, he has played well for us and is always healthy, so he deserves to be rewarded for his hard work. I was shocked to see he was a 10th round choice, what a surprise he must have been!

loadie 07-15-2004 05:22 PM

Well, if Conroy can get $3 Mil +, I'd have to say that Zednik will be around the 3.5 - 4 Mil mark.

Des Louise 07-15-2004 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-bob
What does it mean when they file for arbritation? I nevber understood what arbritation was.

Both parties bring up statistical and salarial comparisons. Schatia will obviously try to compare Zednik to guys that are overpaid about the same age (Sykora?) while Gainey and co will bring exemples of guys who have about the same production but are paid lesser amounts of cash (Parrish?).

A neutral guy appointed by the NHL will then evaluate the comparisons and pass judgement. The habs will be forced to pay whatever the amount will be or will be forced to trade him.

Players are often told they should not attend those hearings because the management's job is to put down the player's importance to the team. Most likely the habs will tell that Zednik's numbers are inflated because of Koivu and other such negative things.

417 07-15-2004 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loadie
Well, if Conroy can get $3 Mil +, I'd have to say that Zednik will be around the 3.5 - 4 Mil mark.


No, no, there's no way Zednik will earn 4 million a year, IMO, they'll settle somewhere in between 2.5 and 3 mil....

loadie 07-15-2004 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
No, no, there's no way Zednik will earn 4 million a year, IMO, they'll settle somewhere in between 2.5 and 3 mil....

I hope your right. I just see Conroys deal being used for a gauge by player agents. :dunno:

Des Louise 07-15-2004 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loadie
Well, if Conroy can get $3 Mil +, I'd have to say that Zednik will be around the 3.5 - 4 Mil mark.

Conroy is not a just comparison IMO. He's a perenial Selke trophy contender and had a 75pts season back in 01-02.

BTW I don't remember, did Conroy ever file for arbitration ?

danboulie 07-15-2004 05:30 PM

He'll likely get something like 2.8 million.
He's been a healthy contributing force for the team, so he should be rewarded for what he's done for the Habs.

chicpea* 07-15-2004 05:35 PM

Arbitration almost always leaves a sour taste in the mouths of those involved. I was happy to hear Thornton filed. Not so happy about Zednik. I understand his position though.

NHLcrazy 07-15-2004 05:35 PM

Arbitration is pretty simple, the player (agent) make an offer and the team makes one, the arbitator chooses one of the 2 offers. The good thing is that both the team and the player must make a reasonable offer.

All-Star 07-15-2004 05:35 PM

His tunnel vision and puck hogging will work against him. He can't create a play; he can only finish one...

2.5 is the maximum he deserves. He and his manager are probably banking on the fact that arbitrators tend to over-pay players.

loadie 07-15-2004 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E = CH²
Conroy is not a just comparison IMO. He's a perenial Selke trophy contender and had a 75pts season back in 01-02.

BTW I don't remember, did Conroy ever file for arbitration ?

Maybe your right. Heres the points on both from 2000:

Zednik:
2000-2001 Canadiens 12 3 6 9 -2 10 1 0 0 0 23 13
2001-2002 Canadiens 82 22 22 44 -3 59 4 0 3 0 249 8.8
2002-2003 Canadiens 80 31 19 50 4 79 9 0 2 1 250 12.4
2003-2004 Canadiens 81 26 24 50 5 63 7 0 9 0 218 11.9

Conroy:
2000-2001 Blues 69 11 14 25 2 46 0 3 2 0 101 10.9
2000-2001 Flames 14 3 4 7 0 14 0 1 0 0 32 9.4
2001-2002 Flames 81 27 48 75 24 32 7 2 4 1 146 18.5
2002-2003 Flames 79 22 37 59 -4 36 5 0 2 0 143 15.4
2003-2004 Flames 63 8 39 47 13 44 2 0 0 0 112 7.

Conroy get a few more points and Zeds a few more goals. But, 417 was right, I think it'll be less than Conroy, who signed has a UFA.

Des Louise 07-15-2004 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLcrazy
Arbitration is pretty simple, the player (agent) make an offer and the team makes one, the arbitator chooses one of the 2 offers. The good thing is that both the team and the player must make a reasonable offer.

Are you sure about that ? I thought that was how MLB arbitration went but that NHL ones were different because the arbitrator had the possibility to cut in the middle if he felt both offers were not just. I'm really not sure though... I'll try to find out...

NHLcrazy 07-15-2004 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E = CH²
Are you sure about that ? I thought that was how MLB arbitration went but that NHL ones were different because the arbitrator had the possibility to cut in the middle if he felt both offers were not just. I'm really not sure though... I'll try to find out...

mmm i'm pretty sure, the thing is it must be a 1year deal right?!?

Sebaldian 07-15-2004 05:50 PM

He deserves 2.5-3M I'd say.

Duster 07-15-2004 05:55 PM

I see a one year deal at mid point between what he wants and what BG offers.

chicpea* 07-15-2004 05:57 PM

There are a lot of different factors that the arbitrator will look at in the NHL. The deal then is basically to find the going market value for other players with similar stats. But this isn't always favourable to all players as some have "intangibles" that don't always show up on the score sheet. Another bone of contention was when the NHL dropped the "shots blocked" category from its official stats sheets a few years ago. We all know blocked shots are important and that players that do so are selfless, but the arbitrator can no longer look at these stats (though, if I recall, last year there was a hack on the NHLPA site where you could still see them - so we know the NHLPA is still keeping track ;) )

Traitor8 07-15-2004 06:12 PM

You can't compare him with Conroy.

Conroy was an UFA. Zednik a RFA.

pjk27 07-15-2004 06:12 PM

Guys, there is a difference between an UFA ie Conroy and a RFA like Zednik. UFA's can get more money because a team doesn't have to compensate another team for that player. Therefore, in doing a comparison we should do it against other RFA. For example, I would put Zednik under Jeff O'Neill because O'Neill has put up better numbers in the past and he plays more of a power forward game. I think O'Neill makes just under 4M so I couldn't see Zednik topping 3M.

Des Louise 07-15-2004 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLcrazy
mmm i'm pretty sure, the thing is it must be a 1year deal right?!?

They can be 1 year or 2 years deal only. It's pretty complicated but the club has to tell the arbitrator wether he wants a 1 year or 2 years deal prior to the hearing. I'm not sure because this is pretty complicated and not in my language but if I understood correctly the player has no say on what lenght he wants. And sometimes the team can't get a 2 years deal, only one year. But don't take it to the bank.

Here's what I found :

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBA
he Club shall elect in its brief whether the
arbitration award shall be for a one or two year contract.
Failure to make such an election shall be deemed to constitute an
election by the Club for a one year contract. Notwithstanding
the foregoing, (i) the Club shall be entitled to elect only a one
year contract if the Player is within one year of attaining the
age and experience level required for Group III Player status;
and (ii) if the Player has attained or is within one year of
attaining the experience level required for Group V Player status
and the Club has elected a two-year contract, the Player may, at
the end of the first year of such contract, elect to void the
second year of the contract if the player's salary for the first
year of such contract is less than the Average League Salary for
such year and upon making such election, such Player shall (if he
otherwise qualifies at such time) become a Group V Player and be
entitled to the rights set out in Section 10.1(b). If the Club
elects a one-year award for a player within one year of attaining
the experience level required for Group V Player status, then at
the end of that year, the player may if he so elects, and if he
qualifies, become a Group V Player at that time and be entitled
to the rights set out in Section 10.1(b).

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicpea
Another bone of contention was when the NHL dropped the "shots blocked" category from its official stats sheets a few years ago. We all know blocked shots are important and that players that do so are selfless, but the arbitrator can no longer look at these stats (though, if I recall, last year there was a hack on the NHLPA site where you could still see them - so we know the NHLPA is still keeping track ;) )

If the NHL or the club keeps track of the statistic then the NHLPA/agent of the player have the right to see and use those statistics in the hearing. I think what you're referring to is the fact the NHL do not provide shots blocked, hits and such statistics publicly because they don't want agents using them in for RFAs that are not eligible for arbitration and for any other UFAs out there. Is that possible ?

Here's what I found :

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBA
(g) Statistics.

The League shall obtain and provide to the NHLPA any
statistics relative to any aspect of player performance (i) kept
or maintained by the League or (ii) retained by any Club. The
NHLPA shall provide to the League any statistics relative to any
aspect of player performance kept or maintained by the NHLPA.
The Commissioner shall use his full authority to ensure each
Club's cooperation in the full and complete implementation of
this provision. Such statistics shall be so provided within four
weeks after the conclusion of the regular season for regular
season statistics and within two weeks after the conclusion of
the playoffs for playoff statistics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicpea
There are a lot of different factors that the arbitrator will look at in the NHL.

Here it is :

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBA
(ii) The parties may offer evidence of the
following:

(A) the overall performance, including
official statistics prepared by the League (both offensive and
defensive) of the Player in the previous season or seasons;
(B) the number of games played by the
Player, his injuries or illnesses during the preceding seasons;

(C) the length of service of the
Player in the League and/or with the Club;

(D) the overall contribution of the
Player to the competitive success or failure of his Club in the
preceding season;

(E) any special qualities of
leadership or public appeal not inconsistent with the fulfillment
of his responsibilities as a playing member of his team;

(F) the overall performance in the
previous season or seasons of any player(s) who is alleged to be
comparable to the party Player whose salary is in dispute; and

(G) (1) The Compensation of any
player(s) who is alleged to be comparable to the party Player,
provided, however, that in applying this or any of the above
subparagraphs, the Arbitrator shall not consider a player(s) to
be comparable to the party Player unless a party to the
arbitration has contended that the player(s) is comparable; nor
shall the Arbitrator consider the Compensation or performance of
a player(s) unless a party to the arbitration has contended that
the player(s) is comparable.

(2) To the extent a non-cash
economic item does not have an attributed value set forth in the
player's contract or any addenda thereto, the parties shall
attribute a value thereto by mutual agreement or, failing to
reach such agreement, then such value shall be determined by the
Impartial Arbitrator. Would that be, let's say, a no trade clause for exemple?

Here's a list of things that can't be used for comparables :

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBA
(iii) The following categories of evidence
are inadmissible and shall not be considered by the Arbitrator:

(1) Any contract the term of which
began when the player party to such contract was not a Group II
Player;

(2) Any contract entered into by an
Unrestricted Free Agent, including contracts signed by players
after the player's Club has exercised a walk-away right pursuant
to Section 12.6;

(3) Qualifying Offers made by the Club
pursuant to Section 10.2;

(4) Any prior offers or history of
negotiations between the Player and the Club;

(5) Testimonials, videotapes,
newspaper columns, press game reports or similar materials;

(6) Any reference to actual or
potential walk-away rights;

(7) Any award issued by an arbitrator
as to which a Club exercised its walk-away rights pursuant to
Section 12.6;

(8) The financial condition of the
Club or the League.


Des Louise 07-15-2004 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLcrazy
Arbitration is pretty simple, the player (agent) make an offer and the team makes one, the arbitator chooses one of the 2 offers. The good thing is that both the team and the player must make a reasonable offer.

I read the whole thing (boring) and I'm still not sure about that... :dunno:

Here's what I found :

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBA
(j) Order of Proceedings.

Unless otherwise determined by the Arbitrator or
mutually agreed to by all parties, the order of proceedings shall
be as follows:

(A) affirmative case of the Player and the NHLPA; (90 minutes)

(B) affirmative case of the Club and the League; (90 minutes)

(C) rebuttal and closing argument of the Player and the (30 minutes)
NHLPA;

(D) rebuttal and closing argument of the Club and the (30 minutes)
League;

(E) surrebuttal by the Player and/or the NHLPA, where
permitted in accordance with subsection 12.5(c) hereof. (10 minutes)

The writing in bold is the time they have to make their case. I have not been able to determine wether or not the affirmative cases had to include a monetary offer. But if I understood it correctly (WHICH IS NO GUARANTY!!!) they don't even make offers, they just provide comparables and the arbritator then provides both parties with the following :

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBA

(ii) The decision of the Arbitrator shall
establish:

(A) the term of the contract, based
upon the Club's election of a one or two year contract, as set
forth in its brief and as consistent with this Article;

(B) the base salary to be paid to the
Player by the Club for the season(s) in respect to which the
arbitration is conducted;

(C) the bonuses, if any, which are
appropriate in the circumstances;

(D) the inclusion or otherwise of a
"minor league clause" (or clauses) and the amount of base salary
to be paid under each of the season(s) in respect to which the
arbitration is requested;

(E) a brief statement of the reasons
for the decision, including identification of any comparable(s)
relied on.


Munchausen 07-15-2004 06:45 PM

If Zednik is signed at 3M or less he's well worth it in my opinion. The guy, for what he brought to this team in the last few years, often being the only scoring threat, came at a dirt cheap price. Time to pay him a fair price for what he can do and what he's done for us. 3M per would be very reasonable. Over that amount however, it'll be hard to see him in the long term plans of the team.

Des Louise 07-15-2004 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchausen
If Zednik is signed at 3M or less he's well worth it in my opinion. The guy, for what he brought to this team in the last few years, often being the only scoring threat, came at a dirt cheap price. Time to pay him a fair price for what he can do and what he's done for us. 3M per would be very reasonable. Over that amount however, it'll be hard to see him in the long term plans of the team.

He's always been very good in the playoffs too.


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