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-   -   Winning the cup...at all cost? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=920579)

HeShootsHeScores 06-02-2011 04:42 PM

Winning the cup...at all cost?
 
I catched a few seconds of last game's intro for the canucks and bruins game and there were banners with something along the lines of "this is what we live for" at the 4 corners of the rink. I gotta say I had chills. I couldn't help myself but wonder how awesome it would be if the habs was in that big stage, where the bests of the bests belong, having a chance to win THE cup. I gotta say sometimes I feel like an NHL puppet for being so emo over a catchphrase. I'm not the only one. Being a huge canadiens and hockey fan, I can't overlook the importance the stanley cup has in my life in an entertainment and passion point of view. If i had to make a "things i gotta do/see before I die" list, "winning the stanley cup" or "my favorite teams wins the stanley cup" would probably be there. As fans, we dream about living this at least once in our lives. I can't even imagine how big of a feeling it would be to see pk subban, carey price or any other canadiens hoist the cup. In my case, it's almost true that as a fan, "this is what I live for". We take the time to discuss about tiny details regarding our teams past, present, and future. We overnanalyze every prospects, every trades, every plays. We hope for the best and our presence in these boards shows how passionnate we are. And I like the idea that the players care not only that they won the cup, but that they're happy they've written history for the montreal canadiens. It's not just the joy of being the fan who is happy his team won, it's also the joy that comes with the empathy towards the player who is quite happy he won it for the team and its history, its prestige (in my dream world:laugh:). That's actually what I found difficult when gainey rebuilded the team entirely. There was this moment where I was hoping the new players would care for the team. Fortunately, they managed to show us they care. Just think about it for a minute. How important it is for you, as a fan, to see your team win the big prize? You get the idea.

That being said, I'd like to read your opinion and your thoughts about the next few lines. I think it's sad and frustrating that in my mind, the cup is on such a pedestal. I feel betrayed and even more like a puppet when I hear about players thinking about the cash before the cup. That is something my brain is just unable to understand. Let me give you an example. Apparently, Pierre Gauthier won't have enough space in the cap to sign both Markov and Wizniewski. Obviously, PG will go for Markov, and with good reasons. From some sources, markov is likely to sign a more than 3 year contract and over 5 millions per year. He wants to sign here because he likes the montreal canadiens and according to the fact he is an nhl player, winning the cup is "what he lives for". But then you gotta wonder, if he really likes the montreal canadiens and if he really lives to win the stanley cup, why would he be so hungry for money? Why not lower the salary to 3-4 millions and give a chance to PG to sign another good player who may actually help his favorite team make his dream come true? Markov is just an example. There are other examples, like star players who would prefer to win 10 millions a year for a crappy team rather than pursuing a personal quest for the cup. In my mind, if you want to be considered a legend, you had to win the cup at least once. Why? Because the great players who really want to win the cup win it, simple as that. Ray won it with the Avs. He took the decisions that made him live his dream. Marian Hossa wanted the cup, and he got it (and jackpot for a huge contract also).

So, what are your feelings toward this? As much as your innerself lives for hockey 24/7, don't you have the impression sometimes that you're being fooled by the illusion that it's passion before business? Do the players really live to win the cup? Do you think some players ignore the opportunity to be a part of a winning team just to have a bigger salary? And just to make the thread more catchy, the last sentence will be the actual title. Do you think the actual NHL era shows us that the players are willing to win the cup...at all cost?

BLONG7 06-03-2011 07:15 AM

Some players are driven by the Cup...others by the almighty dollar...The fans are another story, they are all about the team and the Cup...sometimes the fans are too crazy about their team...

When the years go on, I am sure the players wane in their desire for the cup, and it all just becomes a job, so to speak...the fans never wane...

24stanleycups* 06-04-2011 10:07 AM

There are few who seem to care only for the money. But you also have to undrstand that these people want to be able to provide for their kids for the rest of their lives and give them the lifestyle that they've enjoyed. I don't think they're being selfish. Being an NHL hockey player, though thrilling, is a constant test of will and strength, endurance and pain. You gotta have nuts to play in this league.

It's fine that the players get big contracts so long as they live up to the those contracts.

The Kremelin Wall* 06-04-2011 10:15 AM

Markov grew up in Soviet Russia, I doubt winning the cup was that important over there.

Le Tricolore 06-04-2011 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattKOTW (Post 33407877)
Markov grew up in Soviet Russia, I doubt winning the cup was that important over there.

Either way, in Soviet Russia, Cup wins you!

bsl 06-04-2011 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeShootsHeScores (Post 33382120)
I catched a few seconds of last game's intro for the canucks and bruins game and there were banners with something along the lines of "this is what we live for" at the 4 corners of the rink. I gotta say I had chills. I couldn't help myself but wonder how awesome it would be if the habs was in that big stage, where the bests of the bests belong, having a chance to win THE cup. I gotta say sometimes I feel like an NHL puppet for being so emo over a catchphrase. I'm not the only one. Being a huge canadiens and hockey fan, I can't overlook the importance the stanley cup has in my life in an entertainment and passion point of view. If i had to make a "things i gotta do/see before I die" list, "winning the stanley cup" or "my favorite teams wins the stanley cup" would probably be there. As fans, we dream about living this at least once in our lives. I can't even imagine how big of a feeling it would be to see pk subban, carey price or any other canadiens hoist the cup. In my case, it's almost true that as a fan, "this is what I live for". We take the time to discuss about tiny details regarding our teams past, present, and future. We overnanalyze every prospects, every trades, every plays. We hope for the best and our presence in these boards shows how passionnate we are. And I like the idea that the players care not only that they won the cup, but that they're happy they've written history for the montreal canadiens. It's not just the joy of being the fan who is happy his team won, it's also the joy that comes with the empathy towards the player who is quite happy he won it for the team and its history, its prestige (in my dream world:laugh:). That's actually what I found difficult when gainey rebuilded the team entirely. There was this moment where I was hoping the new players would care for the team. Fortunately, they managed to show us they care. Just think about it for a minute. How important it is for you, as a fan, to see your team win the big prize? You get the idea.

That being said, I'd like to read your opinion and your thoughts about the next few lines. I think it's sad and frustrating that in my mind, the cup is on such a pedestal. I feel betrayed and even more like a puppet when I hear about players thinking about the cash before the cup. That is something my brain is just unable to understand. Let me give you an example. Apparently, Pierre Gauthier won't have enough space in the cap to sign both Markov and Wizniewski. Obviously, PG will go for Markov, and with good reasons. From some sources, markov is likely to sign a more than 3 year contract and over 5 millions per year. He wants to sign here because he likes the montreal canadiens and according to the fact he is an nhl player, winning the cup is "what he lives for". But then you gotta wonder, if he really likes the montreal canadiens and if he really lives to win the stanley cup, why would he be so hungry for money? Why not lower the salary to 3-4 millions and give a chance to PG to sign another good player who may actually help his favorite team make his dream come true? Markov is just an example. There are other examples, like star players who would prefer to win 10 millions a year for a crappy team rather than pursuing a personal quest for the cup. In my mind, if you want to be considered a legend, you had to win the cup at least once. Why? Because the great players who really want to win the cup win it, simple as that. Ray won it with the Avs. He took the decisions that made him live his dream. Marian Hossa wanted the cup, and he got it (and jackpot for a huge contract also).

So, what are your feelings toward this? As much as your innerself lives for hockey 24/7, don't you have the impression sometimes that you're being fooled by the illusion that it's passion before business? Do the players really live to win the cup? Do you think some players ignore the opportunity to be a part of a winning team just to have a bigger salary? And just to make the thread more catchy, the last sentence will be the actual title. Do you think the actual NHL era shows us that the players are willing to win the cup...at all cost?

I think this is an excellent and honest post. Try to break up your thoughts into paragraphs though! A little tough to read.

HSHS you may not realize, but your post is not just about the Habs, it's about life today. For all of us. The Habs, all NHL players, Prime Ministers and burger flippers. You and me too.

It was a different and perhaps safer world in the 70's when the Habs had their last run.

The 80's gave us Ronnie Reagan and Maggie. 'Look out for number one.' 'Show me the money.' 'There is no such thing as society.' That last one from Maggie. Terrible.

I think your question is spot on. A cup, or 2 mill more a year? What should I do?

Sorry to say HSHS, but because the world has become quite brutal, and we all have to fight each other now for every damn penny, and look after ourselves only, money will win.

The Cup is a luxury. We all, including pro hockey players, do not feel safe. Millions do not make a difference. There are just more and more costs, more things to desperately pay for every month.

Today, we need the money because no one else will ever help us in this horrible society we have created.

The Cup has become an add on. A bonus. A good thing to have if things go right. But don't make me pay for it.

macavoy 06-04-2011 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsl (Post 33408682)
I think your question is spot on. A cup, or 2 mill more a year? What should I do?

Except the question isn't nearly that simple. Markov giving up $2m doesn't = a cup. It represents maybe a 2% greater chance than he already has at winning the cup.

Do you really want to give $2m up for a 2% better chance? The problem is, you need a core of like 5 guys to make that sacrifice at the same time for it to ever be of significant value. Reality is, there are only 1 or 2 players a year who come up for negotiation that can make a difference by taking a cut.

bsl 06-04-2011 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 33408779)
Except the question isn't nearly that simple. Markov giving up $2m doesn't = a cup. It represents maybe a 2% greater chance than he already has at winning the cup.

Do you really want to give $2m up for a 2% better chance? The problem is, you need a core of like 5 guys to make that sacrifice at the same time for it to ever be of significant value. Reality is, there are only 1 or 2 players a year who come up for negotiation that can make a difference by taking a cut.

You are correct. Good addition to the discussion. Bolsters the argument.

Further: HSHS in innocence asked the really important question: What is more important to the NHL player? The Cup? Or money? I stated that it is money, because of the world we, you and me, and HSHS and NHL players live in is brutal.

In the world we live in, I do not blame any NHL player for taking money over sacrificing for a cup. The system we all live in gives them no choice.

24stanleycups* 06-04-2011 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Tricolore (Post 33407896)
Either way, in Soviet Russia, Cup wins you!

hahahaha

prairie hab 06-04-2011 04:20 PM

I really think it would be a huge mistake for Gauthier to let Wisniewski leave.

I get the "Markov love", but I have never been a fan of Markov. To me he is too high risk at this point in his career in terms of investing big dollars over the long term. He has proven to be injury prone, and his playoff numbers over his career show that he obviously peaks at the wrong time during a season.

The Habs fared well without him last season, and generally speaking, the season prior to that. The emergence of Subban, and the production supplied by Wisniewski can solidify the defensive corps for years to come.

I know some will say Wisniewski has suffered similar injuries to Markov. The fact is though, that Wisniewski has proved he can come back and play a full season. He is younger, physically tougher, and likely can bring more to the locker room. Markov is a better passer, is a better defender, but I don't buy that he is perceived as a leader even if the "A" is on his jersey. The likes of Gionta, Cammel, Gill, Gorges, Price, and eventually Subban will be looked to for leadership in this group.

Wisniewski's consistent production allowed Montreal to go through the adversity it did on defense this past season with all the injuries. Why would you want to replace that, oir let alone walk away from it???

As pretty as Markov can be to watch at times........ he hasn't been part of any long playoff run by the Habs - not even close. Why does everyone insist he is what can put this club over the top? He has yet to do so, and has had a hell of a long time to do so............

DJ Breadman 06-04-2011 04:24 PM

Why give up money? Why not make your money and win the cup, it happens

SouthernHab 06-04-2011 05:47 PM

Markov could very well give up $2 million a year (foolishly I might add) and not come close to the Cup, even if the Habs were able to sign Wiz.

Why? Hockey is a TEAM game. If the entire team is not buying into the "system" (or, in my opinion, if the coach is not playing the right system to match his personnel), then what would be the point of taking a pay cut?

Hockey. Always has been and always will be a TEAM game. One person is not large enough to win it all.

I have seen the Habs lift the Cup several times. Nothing feels better. And nothing is more frustrating that seeing the current Habs playing and KNOWING that they are so far away from winning the next Cup with the style of play that they use.:(

onemorecup* 06-05-2011 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeShootsHeScores (Post 33382120)
I catched a few seconds of last game's intro for the canucks and bruins game and there were banners with something along the lines of "this is what we live for" at the 4 corners of the rink. I gotta say I had chills. I couldn't help myself but wonder how awesome it would be if the habs was in that big stage, where the bests of the bests belong, having a chance to win THE cup. I gotta say sometimes I feel like an NHL puppet for being so emo over a catchphrase. I'm not the only one. Being a huge canadiens and hockey fan, I can't overlook the importance the stanley cup has in my life in an entertainment and passion point of view. If i had to make a "things i gotta do/see before I die" list, "winning the stanley cup" or "my favorite teams wins the stanley cup" would probably be there. As fans, we dream about living this at least once in our lives. I can't even imagine how big of a feeling it would be to see pk subban, carey price or any other canadiens hoist the cup. In my case, it's almost true that as a fan, "this is what I live for". We take the time to discuss about tiny details regarding our teams past, present, and future. We overnanalyze every prospects, every trades, every plays. We hope for the best and our presence in these boards shows how passionnate we are. And I like the idea that the players care not only that they won the cup, but that they're happy they've written history for the montreal canadiens. It's not just the joy of being the fan who is happy his team won, it's also the joy that comes with the empathy towards the player who is quite happy he won it for the team and its history, its prestige (in my dream world:laugh:). That's actually what I found difficult when gainey rebuilded the team entirely. There was this moment where I was hoping the new players would care for the team. Fortunately, they managed to show us they care. Just think about it for a minute. How important it is for you, as a fan, to see your team win the big prize? You get the idea.

That being said, I'd like to read your opinion and your thoughts about the next few lines. I think it's sad and frustrating that in my mind, the cup is on such a pedestal. I feel betrayed and even more like a puppet when I hear about players thinking about the cash before the cup. That is something my brain is just unable to understand. Let me give you an example. Apparently, Pierre Gauthier won't have enough space in the cap to sign both Markov and Wizniewski. Obviously, PG will go for Markov, and with good reasons. From some sources, markov is likely to sign a more than 3 year contract and over 5 millions per year. He wants to sign here because he likes the montreal canadiens and according to the fact he is an nhl player, winning the cup is "what he lives for". But then you gotta wonder, if he really likes the montreal canadiens and if he really lives to win the stanley cup, why would he be so hungry for money? Why not lower the salary to 3-4 millions and give a chance to PG to sign another good player who may actually help his favorite team make his dream come true? Markov is just an example. There are other examples, like star players who would prefer to win 10 millions a year for a crappy team rather than pursuing a personal quest for the cup. In my mind, if you want to be considered a legend, you had to win the cup at least once. Why? Because the great players who really want to win the cup win it, simple as that. Ray won it with the Avs. He took the decisions that made him live his dream. Marian Hossa wanted the cup, and he got it (and jackpot for a huge contract also).

So, what are your feelings toward this? As much as your innerself lives for hockey 24/7, don't you have the impression sometimes that you're being fooled by the illusion that it's passion before business? Do the players really live to win the cup? Do you think some players ignore the opportunity to be a part of a winning team just to have a bigger salary? And just to make the thread more catchy, the last sentence will be the actual title. Do you think the actual NHL era shows us that the players are willing to win the cup...at all cost?

it all depends on the player

if I am Wiz ....this is my last shot at contract and I am taking the dough before a new CBA ...he can go for a cu p later at 31 or so

but most players will not give home town discounts unless they have made a chunk of money already and why would you if some team wants to overapy

Marchy79 06-05-2011 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattKOTW (Post 33407877)
Markov grew up in Soviet Russia, I doubt winning the cup was that important over there.

Actually you'd be surprised (seriously)

The Stanley Cup is THE most sought after Championship trophy in all of hockey (even more so than the olympics).

Russians in Markov's era understood very well the stanley cup, how valuable it is... & I am sure he is only beginning to understand why so many analysts call it the hardest team trophy to win in all of pro sports. Many Russians actually come to the NHL specifically for 2 reasons.... 1) to play in the highest competitive league in the world. 2) to win the Stanley Cup, and win the most competitive grueling tournament to do so, so that they can finally name themselves Champions.

Teufelsdreck 06-05-2011 07:47 AM

There are 30 NHL teams and approximately 700 players, all of whom yearn to be on a championship team, although the vast majority of them never will. One question that hasn't been asked is: Do the players care if they win the Cup with the team that drafted them or would they be just as satisfied if they win it with the third team they play for? Remember, it's just coincidence that they start their careers with a particular team and they could traded at any point because loyalty down is the exception rather than the rule. There would be far more trades if caps and payrolls and contracts weren't so complex. One thing all 700 players have in common is that they want to be so well paid that they can enjoy an upscale lifestyle while they're active and then live comfortably after they retire.

jlgib21* 06-05-2011 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 (Post 33425636)
Actually you'd be surprised (seriously)

The Stanley Cup is THE most sought after Championship trophy in all of hockey (even more so than the olympics).

Russians in Markov's era understood very well the stanley cup, how valuable it is... & I am sure he is only beginning to understand why so many analysts call it the hardest team trophy to win in all of pro sports. Many Russians actually come to the NHL specifically for 2 reasons.... 1) to play in the highest competitive league in the world. 2) to win the Stanley Cup, and win the most competitive grueling tournament to do so, so that they can finally name themselves Champions.

The analogy I've hard from former and current players: Would an American football player or baseball player really be that passionate about winning the Grey Cup or japanese world series ? North American hockey players have their dreams of winning the cup since they lace them up. Many Euros(not all) lose their passion come playoff because the paychecks stop and the game gets much more physical and intense.Not my theory,but I totally agree with it.

HeShootsHeScores 06-05-2011 09:29 AM

So i guess the players don't take their decisions based on the cup. That would mean winning the cup has more to do with hope and fate rather than choices..."Too bad if it never happens, at least I'm freakingly rich. I can live with that.Zoom.Smile.Wink. Credits roll."

It's not a bad thing. it's just quite paradoxical when you think these players make a living out of hype and hope of the fans.

Teufelsdreck 06-05-2011 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeShootsHeScores (Post 33426770)
So i guess the players don't take their decisions based on the cup. That would mean winning the cup has more to do with hope and fate rather than choices..."Too bad if it never happens, at least I'm freakingly rich. I can live with that.Zoom.Smile.Wink. Credits roll."

It's more or less the same as the choice of an Olympic gold medal or an NCAA championship vs. a lucrative professional contract. It's hypocritical of Habs fans to complain when a prospect chooses to continue his university education rather than report to the Habs training camp. Those fans are thinking only of their own desire if the athlete puts his personal values first. They want him to go for the money.

HeShootsHeScores 06-05-2011 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck (Post 33426893)
It's more or less the same as the choice of an Olympic gold medal or an NCAA championship vs. a lucrative professional contract. It's hypocritical of Habs fans to complain when a prospect chooses to continue his university education rather than report to the Habs training camp. Those fans are thinking only of their own desire if the athlete puts his personal values first. They want him to go for the money.

So you think the fans have their share of responsibility for somehow "corrupting" the professionals at a young age by asking for too much too soon. Makes sense and I agree.

And maybe the players don't see the fans as such teammates or partners has we'd like to believe. They might have more bitter feelings toward us for asking for too much, hence the way they think much more about their personnal choices than what the social collectivity wants. To make choices based on winning the cup is a tasty poison, while making cash is the easy way out.


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