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drewcon40 07-19-2004 11:25 AM

Against tanking the season
 
A popular debate on this board and around other NY Ramnger message boards is the idea to tank the season in an effort to draft Sidney Crosby in the upcoming draft. I, for one, cannot believe that some folks would suggest that. I think it is a ludicros idea and would be a disaster to attempt.

There are some people on this board who feel Sidney Crosby is the "next" one. He still may be. Wasn't there similar hype for Ovechkin and Kovalchuk? How about Eric Lindros? The Quebec Nordiques begged this man to change his mind and play and what happened? The Flyers (and Rangers) were willing to give up a ton for him.

Philadelphia Flyers traded Ron Hextall, Peter Forsberg, Steve Duchesne, Kerry Huffman, Mike Ricci, Chris Simon, 1st round selection (Jocelyn Thibault) in 1993, 1st round selection (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals - Nolan Baumgartner) in 1994 and cash to the Quebec Nordiques for Eric Lindros.

Eric Lindros never won the cup. He did make the team better but with his frequent head injuries and rumored locker room presence (negative), he never won the Cup. What about the "can't miss kid" Bobby Carpenter?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/high.../sicovers.html

Feb. 23, 1981: "The Can't-Miss Kid -- Here's Bobby Carpenter. He's 17 and hails from Peabody, Mass. NHL scouts say he's the best U.S. prospect they've seen. Ever."

Carpenter became the first U.S. player to go right from high school to the NHL, and was the first U.S. player to score 50-plus goals in an NHL season, racking up 53 goals and 42 assists in 1984-85. He played 18 NHL seasons for the Capitals, Rangers, Kings, Bruins and Devils, compiling 728 points on 320 goals and 408 assists


Now, I understand that the fans want the Rangers to play so poorly that they position themselves to draft Crosby. This would be an unmitigated disaster. I know that most fans think that this year is a "rebuilding" year and we should go 0-84. If management has that attitude or even uttered that a thought, then I would be an angry fan. Whether it is Josef Balej, Jed Ortmeyer or Jaromir Jagr, Mike Dunham, etc. Those guys better prepare to try and win that game. In March 2003, management made a commitment to youth and purged most of the roster of veteran players that just didn't work. They bring in prospects and young players on the cusp of being NHL ready. There is absolutely no way that I want to instill any thoughts of tanking and losing games at a shot of bringing in a prospect. NHL prospects are just that until they prove otherwise. Whoever drafts Sidney Crosby is going to wil the cup 15-19 years in a row? If we happen to get the number 1 pick and draft Crosby, great. If there is an NHL season, then every game, the Rangers (including Holik, Jagr, Poti, Rachunek, Balej, Pock, Tyutin, Wolfpack call-up, etc.) better play that game to win.

If Renney, Sather, and Maloney have a plan to tank the season just to get Crosby, the Rangers may never make the playoffs again.

Yorkie 07-19-2004 11:51 AM

thought hockey was an 82 game schedule?

Unknownbutfamous 07-19-2004 11:52 AM

As long as the youngins develop im cool. We are rebuilding. Part of rebuilding is getting a high pick(not necessarily the #1 overall). I would be happy if Jagr lead the league in scoring, the kids developed, and the Rangers Draft Brule, or Johnson.

Shadowtron 07-19-2004 12:11 PM

But we're not talking about a team projected to make some noise in the playoffs. This is a rebuilding team that, more likely than not, will lose a helluva a lot more games than they win. I agree that teams shouldn't deliberately tank a season in hopes of getting No. 1 overall. But surely one can take advantage of a situation that may bring the Rangers close enough to the No. one spot to make it work. If nothing's on the line, I say go for it. Let the kids play, and let's see what happens with next year's draft.

drewcon40 07-19-2004 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkie
thought hockey was an 82 game schedule?


Yorkie - you're right. Please disregard my entire post. :blush:

007 07-19-2004 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkie
thought hockey was an 82 game schedule?

Yeah, but if we're going for Crosby, we need to be extra thorough! :joker:

Yizee* 07-19-2004 02:28 PM

what
 
I dont understand just because the Rangers are rebuilding that they automatically see themselves as losers. Did you see what Pittsburgh was able to do at the end of the season? They figured out that they were better than what people made them out to be and actually won a bunch of games in a row. The biggest problem with most new york teams is always no compassion or no heart or no leadership or nothing. I dont care if we had baseball players on this team - if we have guys who want to get out there and win they could easily make the playoffs. And also, why cant we just sign Zigmund Palffy and Paul Kariya and then trade them if they become a failure? Look at what we got just for guys like Rucinsky at the trade deadline - 2nd round picks. Did you see a picture of Bruce Graham? He hovers above everyone else and looks like a great potential for us. We get him in the second round. Rebuilding or not - it's heart and teamwork that gets teams in the playoffs and until we get that we wont see the playoffs.

Mr. Lack 07-19-2004 02:34 PM

I just want to see a different team than we did last year. I want to see effort. I want to see passion. I want to see hustle.

I want to develop the younger players and when those players make mistakes I want them to get punished and learn from it.

So if we have 20 wins or 45 wins....I don't care. As long a we move in a productive direction for our future. But I want to see 82 passion-filled games.

nyr7andcounting 07-19-2004 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yizee
I dont understand just because the Rangers are rebuilding that they automatically see themselves as losers. Did you see what Pittsburgh was able to do at the end of the season? They figured out that they were better than what people made them out to be and actually won a bunch of games in a row. The biggest problem with most new york teams is always no compassion or no heart or no leadership or nothing. I dont care if we had baseball players on this team - if we have guys who want to get out there and win they could easily make the playoffs. And also, why cant we just sign Zigmund Palffy and Paul Kariya and then trade them if they become a failure? Look at what we got just for guys like Rucinsky at the trade deadline - 2nd round picks. Did you see a picture of Bruce Graham? He hovers above everyone else and looks like a great potential for us. We get him in the second round. Rebuilding or not - it's heart and teamwork that gets teams in the playoffs and until we get that we wont see the playoffs.

First of all those guys wouldn't sign with us because we are not a very good team. Players like that are looking to win, not be part of a rebuild. Most guys don't wait 13 years to become a UFA so they can sign with a crappy team...atleast not the first time they hit the open market.

And the reason we wouldn't get much in a trade for a Palffy or Kariya is because free agents rarely have much value on the trade market the next season, because if teams wanted Palffy or Kariya, they would sign him now, they wouldn't let us sign him and then try and trade for him in March.

If they did sign with us, then that means there isn't much interest in them from other teams, which means not much interest in march either. Or it means that we overpaid for them, so come March some teams that were interested wouldn't want the salary (otherwise they would have offered more this summer)

little a from da bx 07-19-2004 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcon40
A popular debate on this board and around other NY Ramnger message boards is the idea to tank the season in an effort to draft Sidney Crosby in the upcoming draft. I, for one, cannot believe that some folks would suggest that. I think it is a ludicros idea and would be a disaster to attempt.

There are some people on this board who feel Sidney Crosby is the "next" one. He still may be. Wasn't there similar hype for Ovechkin and Kovalchuk? How about Eric Lindros? The Quebec Nordiques begged this man to change his mind and play and what happened? The Flyers (and Rangers) were willing to give up a ton for him.

Philadelphia Flyers traded Ron Hextall, Peter Forsberg, Steve Duchesne, Kerry Huffman, Mike Ricci, Chris Simon, 1st round selection (Jocelyn Thibault) in 1993, 1st round selection (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals - Nolan Baumgartner) in 1994 and cash to the Quebec Nordiques for Eric Lindros.

Eric Lindros never won the cup. He did make the team better but with his frequent head injuries and rumored locker room presence (negative), he never won the Cup. What about the "can't miss kid" Bobby Carpenter?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/high.../sicovers.html

Feb. 23, 1981: "The Can't-Miss Kid -- Here's Bobby Carpenter. He's 17 and hails from Peabody, Mass. NHL scouts say he's the best U.S. prospect they've seen. Ever."

Carpenter became the first U.S. player to go right from high school to the NHL, and was the first U.S. player to score 50-plus goals in an NHL season, racking up 53 goals and 42 assists in 1984-85. He played 18 NHL seasons for the Capitals, Rangers, Kings, Bruins and Devils, compiling 728 points on 320 goals and 408 assists


Now, I understand that the fans want the Rangers to play so poorly that they position themselves to draft Crosby. This would be an unmitigated disaster. I know that most fans think that this year is a "rebuilding" year and we should go 0-84. If management has that attitude or even uttered that a thought, then I would be an angry fan. Whether it is Josef Balej, Jed Ortmeyer or Jaromir Jagr, Mike Dunham, etc. Those guys better prepare to try and win that game. In March 2003, management made a commitment to youth and purged most of the roster of veteran players that just didn't work. They bring in prospects and young players on the cusp of being NHL ready. There is absolutely no way that I want to instill any thoughts of tanking and losing games at a shot of bringing in a prospect. NHL prospects are just that until they prove otherwise. Whoever drafts Sidney Crosby is going to wil the cup 15-19 years in a row? If we happen to get the number 1 pick and draft Crosby, great. If there is an NHL season, then every game, the Rangers (including Holik, Jagr, Poti, Rachunek, Balej, Pock, Tyutin, Wolfpack call-up, etc.) better play that game to win.

If Renney, Sather, and Maloney have a plan to tank the season just to get Crosby, the Rangers may never make the playoffs again.

just curious with all that what is your point those articles do not have anything to do with tanking the season, this team is going to los no matter what and i would love crosby here, if not then brule. i wouldnt mind a losing season for a while especially to get a kid like one of those 2 . which we willprobably be in the spot to get.. what dont u get we have no #1 center crosby is what nyr needs....

thornton- boston
tb- ricards and lecalviaer
nash- zherdev and nash
ottawa- spezza
atl- kovalckuk and heatley
nyr- NOTHING ( unless we get crosby then it would look like this
nyr- crosby

thats alot better looking for us we need top line offensive talent that is all.... and u say a 84 game season in your quote " this year is a "rebuilding" year and we should go 0-84. "<~~~~~~~~~~~, since when i thought it was a 82 game season...... not 84 so your comments concern me since u dont really know how many games are in a season... :dunno:

Unknownbutfamous 07-19-2004 03:58 PM

"nyr- crosby"

That looks good!! Im drooling thinkin about it

Radek27 07-19-2004 04:16 PM

I think a lot of fans on this board will be sad when we don't finish last. This team is going to be hard working and younger, but why does that mean we will stink? If we can sign a good goalie who can steal some games, and if Jagr plays the way he can we could sneak into an 8th or 7th spot. Gotta get a better goalie though cause I don[t think Dunham can make it through a whole season anyhow. IMO the guy isn't even a starting goalie.

dedalus 07-19-2004 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcon40
Now, I understand that the fans want the Rangers to play so poorly that they position themselves to draft Crosby. This would be an unmitigated disaster.

Explain please and offer something more than "he may be a bust like Bobby Carpenter." Quite frankly I can use that as an argument to trade away every draft pick the team owns in order to get 33 year olds whom we KNOW can play.

In any case he may very well be the next Gretzky (as Gretzky himself has called him). That being the case, please explain how coming in last allows you to state unequivocally that this would be "an unmitigated disaster."

Seems to me that if the kid turns out to be another Gretzky, that mitigates disaster quite nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcon40
If Renney, Sather, and Maloney have a plan to tank the season just to get Crosby, the Rangers may never make the playoffs again.

Right. And they may never make the playoffs if they DON'T "tank" the season, so what's your point?

broadwayblue 07-19-2004 05:02 PM

sneaking into the playoffs (and out of the lottery) would only hurt this team in the long run. but the point i've made before is that they don't need to tank. they simply are one of the worst teams in the league at this point. so the losing will come naturally.

Edge 07-19-2004 05:16 PM

Does this team need to tank? No

But this team should stay away from shooting themselves in the foot.

Look if we perform better than expected and its the result of guys like Lundmark, Tytuin and others stepping up than I am okay with it.

But if we finish better than we should because Jagr and Holik were double shifted and Dunham {who has no place in this teams future} plays the hockey of his life than YES I am gonna be pretty upset.

I dont think people would mind seeing a young team win, but they would mind seeing this team play overplay some vets so they can finish just good enough to be mediocre.

FakePlasticJackets 07-19-2004 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcon40

If Renney, Sather, and Maloney have a plan to tank the season just to get Crosby, the Rangers may never make the playoffs again.

To think that the Rangers would "intentionally" tank a season if quite funny. Maybe management should stick with what has worked for an NHL-leading 7 straight years.

Edge 07-19-2004 05:39 PM

Yeah i think if we label this team a cup contender we're guranteed to get the top pick.....

drewcon40 07-19-2004 11:45 PM

little a from da bx/dedalus
 
little a from da bx:

thornton- boston
tb- ricards and lecalviaer
nash- zherdev and nash
ottawa- spezza
atl- kovalckuk and heatley
nyr- NOTHING ( unless we get crosby then it would look like this
nyr- crosby


I appreciate the response. I know that there are 82 games in a season and just made a typing error. If that is your argument against me, then that's a bit childish. It's a shame because you make an intelligent and interesting response but Nash and Zherdev play for Columbus not Nashville.

Devils, Detroit, Quebec/Colorado, Dallas - Did they have the "next" one. They built a team. (Heck Quebec/Col did it by trading the last "Next one")

little a from da bx and dedalus:
My post got off on a rant. I was trying to sneak in a lot of points and rushed through it during work (I guess I should be working instead) ;)

How I basically feel is that Crosby is a great prospect but be careful annointing him as the "Netzky" or "Can't miss" because there are no guarantees. I sited Bobby Carpenter because I recall he had similar hype. I don't think coming in last, by itself, is the "unmitigated disaster". There are suggestions that the Rangers put the effort into making sure that happens. Almost like Rachel Phelps does to the Indians in Major League (and that ends with the Indians beating the Yankees to win the penant).

Again, dedalus, to address your offer more response, I should have been more to the point. I do not feel one player is worth tanking a season or hoping for a losing season. Dedalus, do you think that the Rangers can harm themselves by winning? I don't understand your last comment. The Rangers may NEVER make the playoffs if they DON'T tank the season?? I want this team to win another Stanley Cup. Multiple Stanley Cups. I want to build a team. I can careless if the Rangers have a player who leads the league in scoring (unless that one thing leads to another). <-- Cue the Fixx

jas 07-20-2004 05:27 AM

I don't think the Rangers deliberately have to tank the season. Simply put, they will be bad. Yes, hopefully Renney will get a handle on running this team. And, I'm sure the effort will be greatly improved. However, you are still most likely dealing with a "D" that will probably have three rookies on it, combined with two questionable d-men in Poti and Rachunek. You've got a goalie at the very bottom of his game in Dunham. And, at this moment, you have only two forwards who have ever scored more than ten goals in a season currently on the roster. This team will be at thwe bottom of the standings and the top of the Crosby race all year.

drewcon40 07-20-2004 10:23 AM

I think the infusion of youth and hunger as oppossed to older veterans who are unmotivated is going to propel this team.

jas 07-20-2004 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcon40
I think the infusion of youth and hunger as oppossed to older veterans who are unmotivated is going to propel this team.

That's all fine and good, but that won't cover up for the mistakes young players are going to make, nor will it make up for the one extra goal this team is likely to have scored against it. This franchise is just coming up from the depths of its rebuilding program. It doesn't turn around that fast.

drewcon40 07-20-2004 10:57 AM

Jas - we have taked on the other "Wall", I think you are a Mets fan too???? :dunno: right?

Anyway, no two sports are alike. But with baseball, The Mets have a younger team and they were suppossed to be "rebuilding" and they are very much in it on July 20.
There is no advantage to tanking a season in MLB but what stops the Rangers from maybe making some noise.

jas 07-20-2004 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcon40
Jas - we have taked on the other "Wall", I think you are a Mets fan too???? :dunno: right?

Anyway, no two sports are alike. But with baseball, The Mets have a younger team and they were suppossed to be "rebuilding" and they are very much in it on July 20.
There is no advantage to tanking a season in MLB but what stops the Rangers from maybe making some noise.


Yup...Graffiti Wall and others...Rangers, Giants, Mets and Knicks...in that order, Drew. I don't doubt that the effort will be better, and the team might even be more disciplined. I just don't think that translates to a better record, especially when teams like Florida, Pittsburgh and Atlanta have improved. There are way too many question marks on this team. While I don't think the Rangers will tank the season, I do think the unstatd goal of the organization is get into the top of this year's draft and get another premier prospect to build around. Develop of the kids will come before making the POs.

drewcon40 07-20-2004 02:05 PM

Jas 4-4! Those are my teams as well! (and Sid Rosenberg from WFAN). So is Sidney Crosby our Eli Manning?


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