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-   -   V-start or toe start? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=929543)

Badger36 06-21-2011 05:01 PM

V-start or toe start?
 
Whats the better way of getting quick, explosive starts?


trtaylor 06-21-2011 06:37 PM


Badger36 06-21-2011 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trtaylor (Post 33809593)

Hmmm, interesting. Thanks.

SenzZen 06-21-2011 09:16 PM

As long as the first few strides are short and choppy- you should be good to go. Then fully extend.

taunting canadian 06-21-2011 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trtaylor (Post 33809593)

Unfortunately, their experimental setup is pretty poor. They state the result before the experiment, and then proceed to time themselves? It would be very easy to (even subconsciously) influence the result of the experiment by skating less efficiently in the techniques that they had already concluded should be less efficient.

ponder 06-21-2011 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trtaylor (Post 33809593)

The way I see it, you just use whatever start fits best with the situation you're in. Any type of v starts are pretty impractical, because when are you in that sort of narrow v stance in a hockey game ever? The crossover style starts are obviously the way to go when you're already coming out of a crossover, or when you've just done a 2 footed stop. And if you're just standing still with a wide stance, then the push and go is the most natural. Getting set up for some different type of start is never worth it, just go with whatever position your feet are already in.

johnnyvegas 06-21-2011 10:45 PM

As ponder said, your starting position is dictated by the situation. Do you want to go in the direction right in front of you or to either side?

If you want to get up to speed quickest then pushing on the toes of your skates is the best. You can do this from either a v- or cross over starting position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk7XA3Xq3ms - Toe Start Analysis by Laura Stamm Power Skating

Badger36 06-22-2011 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponder (Post 33818551)
The way I see it, you just use whatever start fits best with the situation you're in. Any type of v starts are pretty impractical, because when are you in that sort of narrow v stance in a hockey game ever? The crossover style starts are obviously the way to go when you're already coming out of a crossover, or when you've just done a 2 footed stop. And if you're just standing still with a wide stance, then the push and go is the most natural. Getting set up for some different type of start is never worth it, just go with whatever position your feet are already in.

It seems like no matter which type of start you go with, the first 3 steps are really more like running than skating anyways.
Is that correct or am I missing something?

Badger36 06-22-2011 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taunting canadian (Post 33817937)
Unfortunately, their experimental setup is pretty poor. They state the result before the experiment, and then proceed to time themselves? It would be very easy to (even subconsciously) influence the result of the experiment by skating less efficiently in the techniques that they had already concluded should be less efficient.

Thats kind of what I thought too. Its not as if you are going to skate exactly as fast every time and that test is prone to bias because the skaters know what stride they are doing at the time.
I do actually agree with the video somewhat in that I find that wider stride works better for me (you dont see very many NHL players who skate with a narrow stride because it would be too easy for them to get knocked down).

noobman 06-22-2011 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponder (Post 33818551)
The way I see it, you just use whatever start fits best with the situation you're in. Any type of v starts are pretty impractical, because when are you in that sort of narrow v stance in a hockey game ever? The crossover style starts are obviously the way to go when you're already coming out of a crossover, or when you've just done a 2 footed stop. And if you're just standing still with a wide stance, then the push and go is the most natural. Getting set up for some different type of start is never worth it, just go with whatever position your feet are already in.

Agreed, it all depends on the situation. If you make a hard stop and need to go in the direction you just came, the crossover start is going to be the best bet. The time you take to set yourself back in a normal position is going to negate the three tens of a second of acceleration you gain from doing a normal start.


I personally don't like toe starts because I feel like if a player comes at you for a hit you're extremely vulnerable. At least with most of the other maneuvers you have *some* balance.

Badger36 06-23-2011 12:00 AM

Yeah, Im starting to think more and more that toe starts dont make much sense.
Im thinking when I need to do a forward start I will just do the push and go and Im also going to work on learning crossover starts for when I need to do a hockey stop and then get moving quickly again or for when I need to move sideways from a faceoff.
Of course, I need to learn how to do regular crossovers before I worry about crossoveer starts. LOL I think I just need to wear my shinguards so that I dont worry about tripping myself and falling. For some reason my mind gets in the way and I always chicken out when I try to do a crossover. I need to get over that.

Sigge 06-23-2011 03:56 AM

Interesting video there trtaylor, even though you might question the outcome especially considering he already states it before trying it.
But hey, I guess he's just trying to prove a point and not really do a proper "research".

Personally I believe that anything except the V start, mainly because of the starting position, should work fine depending on the situation.
On a side note, I was always taught since I was a kid that the push and go was the best and easiest way to get a quick start.

trtaylor 06-23-2011 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigge (Post 33874079)
Interesting video there trtaylor, even though you might question the outcome especially considering he already states it before trying it.
But hey, I guess he's just trying to prove a point and not really do a proper "research".

Personally I believe that anything except the V start, mainly because of the starting position, should work fine depending on the situation.
On a side note, I was always taught since I was a kid that the push and go was the best and easiest way to get a quick start.

Yeah, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I knew of the video and it did apply to the original poster's question. I think some valid points have been made regarding the methodolgy used. But, I think there may be more to (the testing) than what made it into a short You Tube video.

If anyone was curious, I suspect Bracko would reply to an e-mail on the subject.

And, good points have been made above regarding use the start that is most appropriate for the situation.

Iplayhockehh 06-27-2011 02:11 AM

The v start with a wide stance but toes pointed outwards is the best option. It's basically what was shown in the video but with your heals way farther apart than that. From that position take three large jumps pushing forward with the front 1/3 of your skate. After the third jump take long strides.

Iplayhockehh 06-27-2011 02:31 AM

By the way, aren't the two videos shown by the OP the same thing with a different name?

Badger36 06-27-2011 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iplayhockehh (Post 34158565)
By the way, aren't the two videos shown by the OP the same thing with a different name?

No because in the first one they dont start on their toes. They have the middle of the blade on the ice, whereas in the 2nd video only the front 2" of the blade are on the ice.
BTW, I tried wide v-starts (the, "push and go") this weekend at pubic skate and it worked fine. I just need more practice with it so that I have the confidence to push hard and get it to a point where its instinct.

Iplayhockehh 06-27-2011 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigchiefwantdacup (Post 34186591)
No because in the first one they dont start on their toes. They have the middle of the blade on the ice, whereas in the 2nd video only the front 2" of the blade are on the ice.
BTW, I tried wide v-starts (the, "push and go") this weekend at pubic skate and it worked fine. I just need more practice with it so that I have the confidence to push hard and get it to a point where its instinct.

Okay, do you want to tell us your technique step by step so we can tell you if you're doing it correctly?

Headcoach 06-27-2011 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigchiefwantdacup (Post 34186591)
No because in the first one they dont start on their toes. They have the middle of the blade on the ice, whereas in the 2nd video only the front 2" of the blade are on the ice.
BTW, I tried wide v-starts (the, "push and go") this weekend at pubic skate and it worked fine. I just need more practice with it so that I have the confidence to push hard and get it to a point where its instinct.


Please keep in mind that in the videos, they were using only one hand on the stick. A lot of hockey players make the mistake of putting two hands on their stick off the line.

When you use one hand, you have more of a runners motion with your arms which help in the aid of the stride. But, if you place that bottom hand on your stick after the first stride that will slow you down because now the arm motion have a tendency to move across your body.

So one of the things you should practice is getting up to speed and on the third for four stride, place that bottom hand on the stick, but try not to have to much upper body movement.

When you have no upper body movement, after the quick stride, you will be ready for the pass!

Head coach

Badger36 06-27-2011 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headcoach (Post 34190641)
Please keep in mind that in the videos, they were using only one hand on the stick. A lot of hockey players make the mistake of putting two hands on their stick off the line.

When you use one hand, you have more of a runners motion with your arms which help in the aid of the stride. But, if you place that bottom hand on your stick after the first stride that will slow you down because now the arm motion have a tendency to move across your body.

So one of the things you should practice is getting up to speed and on the third for four stride, place that bottom hand on the stick, but try not to have to much upper body movement.

When you have no upper body movement, after the quick stride, you will be ready for the pass!

Head coach

I'll keep those things in mind. Thanks, coach! :D

SensAreReligion 06-27-2011 10:42 PM

V Start! get some speed right away ( i like to cross over alot also)

Badger36 06-27-2011 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonSpezza19 (Post 34209027)
V Start! get some speed right away ( i like to cross over alot also)

Im working on crossovers but like I said in one of my above posts, I have to learn how to do crossovers around the faceoff circle before I worry about crossover starts.
I definetly intend to learn those too and hopefully soon! I need to make up for my lack of hockey sense (due to not picking up hockey until age 30) with superior skating ability!

TheOtter 06-28-2011 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigchiefwantdacup (Post 34209179)
Im working on crossovers but like I said in one of my above posts, I have to learn how to do crossovers around the faceoff circle before I worry about crossover starts.
I definetly intend to learn those too and hopefully soon! I need to make up for my lack of hockey sense (due to not picking up hockey until age 30) with superior skating ability!

Just a thought - working on crossover starts may help you learn to do crossovers around the circle (it's all about learning to use that outside edge and trusting that you can move your weight around without falling). Work on everything a little bit at a time, and you never know which technique will help you get over the hump for some other technique. Don't limit yourself to any one sequence.

night-timer 06-30-2011 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigchiefwantdacup (Post 33869177)
Yeah, Im starting to think more and more that toe starts dont make much sense.
Im thinking when I need to do a forward start I will just do the push and go and Im also going to work on learning crossover starts for when I need to do a hockey stop and then get moving quickly again or for when I need to move sideways from a faceoff.
Of course, I need to learn how to do regular crossovers before I worry about crossoveer starts. LOL I think I just need to wear my shinguards so that I dont worry about tripping myself and falling. For some reason my mind gets in the way and I always chicken out when I try to do a crossover. I need to get over that.

What position do you play? If you're in defence, you might occasionally find yourself doing a hockey stop behind your own goal net when you're in possession of the puck while waiting for a winger on either side to become open.

(Depending on which side you skate towards before passing up to the wing, you might do a crossover after stopping, while still puck handling.)

The co-ordination required in good hockey is challenging and there are no short cuts in my experience so far!

night-timer 06-30-2011 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenzZen (Post 33816355)
As long as the first few strides are short and choppy- you should be good to go. Then fully extend.

... although I once heard a player suggest that those first few strides don't necessarily need to be short (why not long?), unless long strides are much harder to do than short ones from a standing start.

Badger36 06-30-2011 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by night-timer (Post 34352057)
What position do you play? If you're in defence, you might occasionally find yourself doing a hockey stop behind your own goal net when you're in possession of the puck while waiting for a winger on either side to become open.

(Depending on which side you skate towards before passing up to the wing, you might do a crossover after stopping, while still puck handling.)

The co-ordination required in good hockey is challenging and there are no short cuts in my experience so far!

I play in an open hockey league and I dont really have a set position I play.
Im a pretty fast skater for my league though (people of all ages but mostly people age 30-50), so I usually end up playing wing.


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