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Biggs 07-22-2004 01:16 PM

European toughguys
 
There is few who have made their way to the NHL. But in europe you cant be a player like Dave Brown... So is there any prospective players in european juniorleagues that can make their way with their fists? Are scouts looking for fighters in europe? If there is a left winger or defender who is big and not a good player but is prospectively strong and has racked up som good penaltymins. Could he have a future in NHL or could he have get drafted? Is the any in Northern europe? Any players like Helenius, or oh jeah in sweden isnt any :eek: But maybe in finland or latvia or there or in russia or poland? Tell me! :bow:

zecke26 07-22-2004 01:56 PM

swedish defender johnny oduya (washington draftee) is pretty much a tough guy. he cracked the SEL PIM record last season. he could be a very tough guy in the NHL. predatore is pretty high on him, i think, so he'll maybe give you more information.

i'm pretty high on swedish LW andreas jamtin (detroit draftee), who's a trashtalker as far as i know and can play tough as well.

that are indeed two swedes. :)

as for germany, i don't see any tough guy.

Predatore 07-22-2004 02:08 PM

Oduya is a tough player no question about it. He is a good fighter too, but then again IMO a European player can never really be called a great fight before he is tested against tough players in the CHL/AHL/NHL.

Here is a video of when Oduya was after Per Ledin in the SEL last season.
http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=7092&a=170038

click "VIDEO: Oduya i blåsväder efter uppgörelse " in the middle.


Swedish tough guys and "good" fighters
- Johnny Oduya (Washington prospect)
- Bert Robertsson (former NHLer)
- Fredrik Svensson (pretty good defenseman, very good when he drops his gloves)
- Jens Karlsson (LA prospect, was much calmer last season though)
- Tobias Holm (below average SEL player)

These guys are more agitators than tough guys, but can through their gloves too
- Andreas Jämtin (Detroit prospect)
- Tomas Berglund (Mr. Agitator himself)

zecke26 07-22-2004 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predatore
Oduya is a tough player no question about it. He is a good fighter too, but then again IMO a European player can never really be called a great fight before he is tested against tough players in the CHL/AHL/NHL.

good point!

Quote:

Here is a video of when Oduya was after Per Ledin in the SEL last season.
http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=7092&a=170038

click "VIDEO: Oduya i blåsväder efter uppgörelse " in the middle.
nice, will download it later. :)

Quote:

Swedish tough guys and "good" fighters
- Johnny Oduya (Washington prospect)
- Bert Robertsson (former NHLer)
- Fredrik Svensson (pretty good defenseman, very good when he drops his gloves)
- Jens Karlsson (LA prospect, was much calmer last season though)
- Tobias Holm (below average SEL player)
hehe, bert is funny, but he wasn't fighting much in the NHL, was he?

Quote:

These guys are more agitators than tough guys, but can through their gloves too
- Andreas Jämtin (Detroit prospect)
would you agree that jamtin has the tools to become a grindliner for detroit in the mould of mccarty?

Predatore 07-22-2004 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zecke26
hehe, bert is funny, but he wasn't fighting much in the NHL, was he?

not much at all, but when he did.. it went pretty well. I think he fought Rob Blake in his NHL-debut during the mid 90's. But then again, Robertsson didn't really get much ice-time in the NHL either and was a only a depth guy basically.


Quote:

Originally Posted by zecke26
would you agree that jamtin has the tools to become a grindliner for detroit in the mould of mccarty?

I think so, yes. A great character on the ice, probably the player that shows most emotion of all players in the SEL.

Fan.At 07-22-2004 02:53 PM

I guess there are no "real" enforcers in european leagues. In Austria the most noticable fighter is Phillipe Lakos, he already showed his toughness in the ECHL. In the Austrian league he is a serviceable defenseman who also made the National Team.

zecke26 07-22-2004 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predatore
not much at all, but when he did.. it went pretty well. I think he fought Rob Blake in his NHL-debut during the mid 90's. But then again, Robertsson didn't really get much ice-time in the NHL either and was a only a depth guy basically.

well, tell me fighters who get much ice-time. ;)

Quote:

I think so, yes. A great character on the ice, probably the player that shows most emotion of all players in the SEL.
nice to hear and good to know that i had the right feeling. sometimes people tell me that i'm blinded by a blue and yellow light if it comes to swedish players. :D

Teus 07-22-2004 03:14 PM

You get suspended for a couple of games if you drop the gloves, so there isn't really any points in fighting a lot in Swedish hockey. Not like you're going to get to the NHL, if you play 20 games per season in SEL and is suspended in the rest...

zecke26 07-22-2004 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teus
You get suspended for a couple of games if you drop the gloves, so there isn't really any points in fighting a lot in Swedish hockey. Not like you're going to get to the NHL, if you play 20 games per season in SEL and is suspended in the rest...

couple of games? in germany you most likely get 5min + game misconduct and a 1-game suspension.

TK79 07-22-2004 03:27 PM

He isn't much of a player, but 6'6 Sami Helenius is one mean son of a *****. Hannes Hyvönen was also quite a hothead when he was still in Finland, they used to call him "Hullu Hannes" or crazy Hannes. I remember this one game when he still played for Espoo, Hannes got kneed during the game. Hannes returned in the final seconds, limping on one leg and hunted down the guy who kneed him, proceding to beat the crap out of him.That was hilarious.He has cooled down considerably since then.

An Ape called Yoko 07-22-2004 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predatore
Oduya is a tough player no question about it. He is a good fighter too, but then again IMO a European player can never really be called a great fight before he is tested against tough players in the CHL/AHL/NHL.

Here is a video of when Oduya was after Per Ledin in the SEL last season.
http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=7092&a=170038

click "VIDEO: Oduya i blåsväder efter uppgörelse " in the middle.


Swedish tough guys and "good" fighters
- Johnny Oduya (Washington prospect)
- Bert Robertsson (former NHLer)
- Fredrik Svensson (pretty good defenseman, very good when he drops his gloves)
- Jens Karlsson (LA prospect, was much calmer last season though)
- Tobias Holm (below average SEL player)

These guys are more agitators than tough guys, but can through their gloves too
- Andreas Jämtin (Detroit prospect)
- Tomas Berglund (Mr. Agitator himself)

Wernblom beats up those guys like nothing. Seriously. He is one tough dude.

Petey21 07-22-2004 04:06 PM

A couple of other tough Swedish players in the SEL are Marcus Kristoffersson and Jesper Björck. A couple other good Swedes (although they're not in the SEL anymore) would be Mikael Magnusson and Magnus Wernblom. But Tobias Holm and Fredrik Svensson listed above aren't in the SEL anymore either.

A couple years ago there was a Finnish team (HIFK) coming to town to play an exhibition game in the preseason, and they had a big guy called Pauli Levokari who seemed to have a temper (and he did drop the gloves in this one game), anyone seen him more than that one game? Did he get involved in fights often? He's been in the AHL the last few years though.

zecke26 07-22-2004 04:15 PM

isn't wennerberg at least an agitator?

gib 07-22-2004 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teus
You get suspended for a couple of games if you drop the gloves, so there isn't really any points in fighting a lot in Swedish hockey. Not like you're going to get to the NHL, if you play 20 games per season in SEL and is suspended in the rest...

Same in Finland, you get automatically 1 game suspension of fighting. So even if there would be player who could become enforcer, has tools for it and everything. He won`t become enforcer, cause there is no use for enforcers in Europe (because of the rules) and you don`t get fighting experience enough compared to NA players. Of course there is always some few guys who push trough and get to NA as enforcer, but biggest obstacle for players in Europe to develope to enforcer is the rules.

Biggs 07-22-2004 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gib
Same in Finland, you get automatically 1 game suspension of fighting. So even if there would be player who could become enforcer, has tools for it and everything. He won`t become enforcer, cause there is no use for enforcers in Europe (because of the rules) and you don`t get fighting experience enough compared to NA players. Of course there is always some few guys who push trough and get to NA as enforcer, but biggest obstacle for players in Europe to develope to enforcer is the rules.

I think the rule of that should be removed and maybe if you fight three times you get one game suspension. another three times and two games. another three and four games. Now its in finland if you drop the gloves once you get one game. twice two games and so on :teach:

gib 07-22-2004 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petey21
A couple years ago there was a Finnish team (HIFK) coming to town to play an exhibition game in the preseason, and they had a big guy called Pauli Levokari who seemed to have a temper (and he did drop the gloves in this one game), anyone seen him more than that one game? Did he get involved in fights often? He's been in the AHL the last few years though.

What I remember is that Levonkari, didn`t fight very often. Only couple of fights a year (some one can correct if I am terrible wrong) he wasn`t really a fighter, but dropped gloves if needed.

Yet Levonkari become very famous here in Finland, about one accident in game between HIFK and JYP. JYP player Jussi Pesonen, who is known player who makes tacles which can be little dirty, tackled one HIFK player to head with his elbow. After that tackle HIFK coach did shout with very loud voice towards JYP pench and Pesonen: "NOW PESONEN BOY WILL F*KING PAY ABOUT THIS". Pesonen did stay on the ice after that hit and HIFK coach did send Levonkari to the ice. So in next shift after that hit Levonkari went after Pesononen and did give him a man handle. That all (also HIFK coach shouting) was recorded accidently by finnish tv chanel and there raised plenty of conversation about can coach on purpose send a player to hurt other player. Furthermore that HIFK coach did clearly threaten Pesonen that there will be revenge. So why I was wrinting this is that Levonkari was the man, who HIFK coach did sent after Pesonen.

btw. How was Mikko Kuparinen doing in SEL? How many fights did he have last season?

Hellström 07-22-2004 04:51 PM

Germany does have some harder players, but i wouldn´t call any of them a fighter.

Daniel Kreutzer might be a softer version of an agitator. I do think that he could play NHL, but as a fringe player.
Carsten Gosdeck racks up lots of penalty minutes and drops the gloves, but he isn´t good at it and he isn´t a good hockey player (IMO).
Pascal Appel is hard player too as is Christop Ullmann, but they aren´t fighter or agitators.
Those players are a waste in the DEL because of the reglement.
Years ago we had guys like Denis Chasse, Craig Martin, Mike Hartmann, Rick Hayward, etc patroling in Germany, but that time is over.

zecke26 07-22-2004 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakos
Daniel Kreutzer might be a softer version of an agitator. I do think that he could play NHL, but as a fringe player.

he was tough as nails when he was younger, but unfortunately he decided to score goals instead of beating the crap out of others. :lol

Quote:

Years ago we had guys like Denis Chasse, Craig Martin, Mike Hartmann, Rick Hayward, etc patroling in Germany, but that time is over.
bah...you forgot the one and only jim hiller who ran over the ice for about 5min to fight every player in sight. und craighead was fun to watch as well. :)

Korkki 07-22-2004 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petey21
A couple of other tough Swedish players in the SEL are Marcus Kristoffersson and Jesper Björck. A couple other good Swedes (although they're not in the SEL anymore) would be Mikael Magnusson and Magnus Wernblom. But Tobias Holm and Fredrik Svensson listed above aren't in the SEL anymore either.

A couple years ago there was a Finnish team (HIFK) coming to town to play an exhibition game in the preseason, and they had a big guy called Pauli Levokari who seemed to have a temper (and he did drop the gloves in this one game), anyone seen him more than that one game? Did he get involved in fights often? He's been in the AHL the last few years though.

1st: Kristofferson was tough? Not in the time he played in Pori. Actually he was too soft and took few very stupid penalties.

2nd: I think it was in a game between Ässät and some Swedish team where was quite a brawl on that one exhibition game. Quite many game misconducts (can't remember how many) It was the only time I heard Levokari had a fight. Sure he is big, but he is too soft for his size.

3rd to gib. It wasn't Levokari who had a fight with Pesonen. It was a guy called Veli-Pekka Kautonen. Levokari wasn't even with IFK that season. However, Levokari got a 8 game suspension next season when he tackled HPK player (Harri Suutarinen I think) against the goal metallic body and the poor rookie broke his jaw and was out for months... I think you mixed these two accidents.

Tampa GM 07-22-2004 05:09 PM

Fredrik Svensson has taken lessons from Paolo Roberto....

Predatore 07-22-2004 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zecke26
isn't wennerberg at least an agitator?

yes he is tough and knows how to agitate. Not up there with the best yet though :)

Hellström 07-22-2004 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zecke26
bah...you forgot the one and only jim hiller who ran over the ice for about 5min to fight every player in sight. und craighead was fun to watch as well. :)


Hiller !
Hiller !
Landshut-Killer !
Hau sie alle um !
UM ! :D

Petey21 07-22-2004 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zecke26
isn't wennerberg at least an agitator?

Yes, more an agitator than a fighter (he has only done that a couple times and is no good at it). But he's probably one of the best hitters in the league though, very good timing and heavy, bonecrunching hits into the boards, although he's not a very big guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korkki
1st: Kristofferson was tough? Not in the time he played in Pori. Actually he was too soft and took few very stupid penalties.

2nd: I think it was in a game between Ässät and some Swedish team where was quite a brawl on that one exhibition game. Quite many game misconducts (can't remember how many) It was the only time I heard Levokari had a fight. Sure he is big, but he is too soft for his size.

As for Kristoffersson, at least last season he was kind of tough at times (he had 125 PIM in 31 games for Djurgården) and I think he was even suspended a couple times or something? But I don't remember exactly what he did though. Maybe he got a bit tougher after a couple years in the AHL, because the PIM stats for him before he went there aren't impressive at all.

And as for Levokari, the game I'm thinking of was an exhibition game between MoDo from my hometown and HIFK, and the only fight in this game was between Levokari and Miroslav Hlinka. So he must've been in at least two fights then. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gib
btw. How was Mikko Kuparinen doing in SEL? How many fights did he have last season?

I don't know how many fights he had as I don't follow his team, but he had 113 PIM in 48 games though, but unfortunately that's all I know.

An Ape called Yoko 07-23-2004 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predatore
yes he is tough and knows how to agitate. Not up there with the best yet though :)

Wennerberg is arguably one of the best hitters in SEL. But he sucks at fighting. Tobias Holm whopped his ass pretty easy as i recall two seasons ago.

Predatore 07-23-2004 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petey21
I don't know how many fights he had as I don't follow his team, but he had 113 PIM in 48 games though, but unfortunately that's all I know.

he only had one 5 minute & game misconduct penalty.. so I am assuming he wasn't involved in many fights last season.


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