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-   -   Speculation: Should Avs offer sheet Stamkos or Doughty? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=938591)

Ivan13 06-30-2011 03:32 AM

Should Avs offer sheet Stamkos or Doughty?
 
Title says it all. I think that if they want to offer sheet someone it should be Stamkos, i don't see that giving up on 4 1st round draft picks for him will be to much (but it will sting a little), something around 80-90mil over 10 years. I'm not so sure that Doughty is worth 4 1st rounders tough. All this becomes a possibility only if we sign Vokoun.

Gabriel Landeskog 06-30-2011 03:45 AM

Our system isn't strong enough yet, If we have a few more years with good drafts then we might be in a situation we can justify giving up a few 1st round picks.

With the way our defense is shaping up and that they will all be young we are probably bound for another solid 1st round pick 2011.

Freudian 06-30-2011 03:47 AM

It's not the Avs style to use offer sheets.

The chance of Kings and Lightning not matching is very small so there is no real benefit. Besides, with most of our valuable assets set to be RFAs soon we'd open ourselves up for offer sheets and might be forced to overpay to keep Duchene and Johnson.

Avsboy 06-30-2011 03:53 AM

->NO

The Angry Teatowel 06-30-2011 03:58 AM

I very much doubt they offer sheet anyone and would hope that they don't. Don't forget that we'll be in a similar situation next year with Duchene & O'Reilly (as well as them getting pay increases) - teams don't forget that sort of behaviour.

Ivan13 06-30-2011 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freudian (Post 34344011)
It's not the Avs style to use offer sheets.

The chance of Kings and Lightning not matching is very small so there is no real benefit. Besides, with most of our valuable assets set to be RFAs soon we'd open ourselves up for offer sheets and might be forced to overpay to keep Duchene and Johnson.

I know it's not their style to give out offer sheets, and i don't think that should definitely do it (especcialy for Doughty), but the thought of having Stamkos is very apelling (just imagine him on a line with Staz or Dutchy, i've read a lot of articles that say Stamkos is more suited to be a winger), and Tampa may be very reluctant to pay him more than 8mil, since they have Vinny, and St. Louis already on big contracts, and they need to sign Hedman next year. As for Duchene and Johnson, there is a simple solution for that, just extend their contracts before the next offseason, even if it means they'll need to overpaid them slightly. Again this all is an option only if we sign Vokoun, and add some veteran D presence.

Landeskog - Stastny - Jones
Hishon - Duchene - Stamkos
TJ - RoR - Mueller
Lindstrom - McClement - Malone
Olver, Winnik, Stoa, Walker,Yip, Mercier, Porter with Nermark in the pipeline

Quincey - EJ
Hamrlik/Hejda - Elliot
Gaunce - RoB
Barrie, Chouinard, Holos, Wilson, Hunwick, with Siemens, Rutkowski in the pipeline

Vokoun
JSG/Harding
with Patterson, Pickard, Aittokalio in the pipeline

That lineup could do some damage in the playoffs IMO.

Freudian 06-30-2011 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13 (Post 34344289)
I know it's not their style to give out offer sheets, and i don't think that should definitely do it (especcialy for Doughty), but the thought of having Stamkos is very apelling (just imagine him on a line with Staz or Dutchy, i've read a lot of articles that say Stamkos is more suited to be a winger), and Tampa may be very reluctant to pay him more than 8mil, since they have Vinny, and St. Louis already on big contracts, and they need to sign Hedman next year. As for Duchene and Johnson, there is a simple solution for that, just extend their contracts before the next offseason, even if it means they'll need to overpaid them slightly. Again this all is an option only if we sign Vokoun, and add some veteran D presence.

Landeskog - Stastny - Jones
Hishon - Duchene - Stamkos
TJ - RoR - Mueller
Lindstrom - McClement - Malone
Olver, Winnik, Stoa, Walker,Yip, Mercier, Porter with Nermark in the pipeline

Quincey - EJ
Hamrlik/Hejda - Elliot
Gaunce - RoB
Barrie, Chouinard, Holos, Wilson, Hunwick, with Siemens, Rutkowski in the pipeline

Vokoun
JSG/Harding
with Patterson, Pickard, Aittokalio in the pipeline

That lineup could do some damage in the playoffs IMO.

If Avs start throwing out offer sheets, the first thing Duchenes and Johnsons agents are going to tell their clients is to not sign anything until July 1st 2012.

Ivan13 06-30-2011 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freudian (Post 34344389)
If Avs start throwing out offer sheets, the first thing Duchenes and Johnsons agents are going to tell their clients is to not sign anything until July 1st 2012.

Valid point, but i don't think Duchene will sign an offer sheet (being an Avs fan all his life), and i doubt they'll get something crazy that Avs won't match, no one is going to give them 6.5+mil, and if someone offers Duchene something like 45,5mil over 7 years Avs will gladly match IMO, since they'll have a clean slate contract wise next year, and they could just as easily take the 4 1st rounders as well if it's something completely insane on the table.

Hasbro 06-30-2011 04:54 AM

Yeah it's fun to think about, but offer sheets aren't that effective for a variety of reasons.

Ski Powder 06-30-2011 05:08 AM

I'm a big fan of young, up-and-coming teams with the Avs being one of them (which makes me dread the day my Canucks core gets old). Adding either Doughty or Stamkos to your team would be ridiculously awesome especially since they'd fit right into your core, age-wise. I know offer sheets don't work out all that well because the other team can match, but seeing how you have the cap-space and all...

Question: What's the threshold of when you'd give 4 1st round picks for a player vs. 2 1st round picks, a 2nd, and a 3rd? For example, last year it was anything over 7.73 mil gets 4 1st rounders, but seeing how the cap went up so much, what's it at now? Point is you wouldn't have to give up 4 1st rounders for Doughty...I don't think.

Edit: Nvm, found it. It's at 7.835 mil just for the record.

Bubba Thudd 06-30-2011 06:20 AM

I don't like offer sheets. Perfectly legal, but under-handed and dirty, IMO.

El_Loco_Avs 06-30-2011 06:37 AM

Do the kings have enough cap space for a big contract on doughty?

If they're just gonna match is mildly pointless.

Ivan13 06-30-2011 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Loco_Avs (Post 34345469)
Do the kings have enough cap space for a big contract on doughty?

If they're just gonna match is mildly pointless.

I believe they have, but even if they don't i would be reluctant to give 4 1st rounders for Doughty, only d-man i would give up 4 1st rounders without thinking twice is Weber, but he isn't avaliable for offer sheets.

chewey 06-30-2011 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13 (Post 34343907)
Title says it all. I think that if they want to offer sheet someone it should be Stamkos, i don't see that giving up on 4 1st round draft picks for him will be to much (but it will sting a little), something around 80-90mil over 10 years. I'm not so sure that Doughty is worth 4 1st rounders tough. All this becomes a possibility only if we sign Vokoun.

...why?

Drury_Sakic 06-30-2011 07:08 AM

I don't think they should go as high as the dollar value that would bring them into the 4 1sts, but I would not be opposed to trying the 7,835,219 that is the max dollar amount for the two 1sts, one 2nd, and one 3rd.

As for opening yourself up for retaliation. It could happen, but the only time we have seen it thus far has been for cheaper players. Neither the Kings or the Lightning would be in a situation where the other team could financially or cap wise take on Duchene or Johnson. There is a chance that O'Reilly could be offer-sheeted by one of the two clubs, but frankly, if someone wanted to offer sheet O'Reilly 4-5 million, which is what it would take, go right ahead.


FORWARDS
Matt Duchene ($6.000m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / David Jones ($2.500m)
Gabrial Landeskog ($3.500m) / Steven Stamkos ($7.725m) / Milan Hejduk ($3.000m)
Chris Drury ($1.000m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($2.700m) / Peter Mueller ($2.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($0.950m) / Jay McClement ($1.450m) / Bradley Malone ($0.687m)
Joakim Lindstrom ($0.600m)


DEFENSEMEN
Kyle Quincey ($3.125m) / Erik Johnson ($6.000m)
Ed Jovanovski ($1.900m) / Stefan Elliott ($0.843m)
Ryan Wilson ($1.251m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.500m)
Kyle Cumiskey ($0.800m)

GOALTENDERS
Tomas Vokoun ($6.000m) / Josh Harding ($1.500m)


SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,291,499; BONUSES: $400,000




Just one estimated roster containing Stamkos with some estimated contracts for a year from now. (and I think I estimated on the high end) If the cap really becomes an issue, you take the lumps and trade Stastny. Also worth noting that Hejduk could very well come off the books a year from now and the Avs could go cheaper than Mueller on the 2nd line. A year after that, if you were smart and signed Vokoun to a 3 year deal, you would have Vokoun's 6 coming off the books so you could re-sign more players and go cheaper in net with Pickard or some other new goalie prospect.

kento19 06-30-2011 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic (Post 34345973)
I don't think they should go as high as the dollar value that would bring them into the 4 1sts, but I would not be opposed to trying the 7,835,219 that is the max dollar amount for the two 1sts, one 2nd, and one 3rd.

As for opening yourself up for retaliation. It could happen, but the only time we have seen it thus far has been for cheaper players. Neither the Kings or the Lightning would be in a situation where the other team could financially or cap wise take on Duchene or Johnson. There is a chance that O'Reilly could be offer-sheeted by one of the two clubs, but frankly, if someone wanted to offer sheet O'Reilly 4-5 million, which is what it would take, go right ahead.


FORWARDS
Matt Duchene ($6.000m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / David Jones ($2.500m)
Gabrial Landeskog ($3.500m) / Steven Stamkos ($7.725m) / Milan Hejduk ($3.000m)
Chris Drury ($1.000m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($2.700m) / Peter Mueller ($2.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($0.950m) / Jay McClement ($1.450m) / Bradley Malone ($0.687m)
Joakim Lindstrom ($0.600m)


DEFENSEMEN
Kyle Quincey ($3.125m) / Erik Johnson ($6.000m)
Ed Jovanovski ($1.900m) / Stefan Elliott ($0.843m)
Ryan Wilson ($1.251m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.500m)
Kyle Cumiskey ($0.800m)

GOALTENDERS
Tomas Vokoun ($6.000m) / Josh Harding ($1.500m)


SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,291,499; BONUSES: $400,000




Just one estimated roster containing Stamkos with some estimated contracts for a year from now. (and I think I estimated on the high end) If the cap really becomes an issue, you take the lumps and trade Stastny. Also worth noting that Hejduk could very well come off the books a year from now and the Avs could go cheaper than Mueller on the 2nd line. A year after that, if you were smart and signed Vokoun to a 3 year deal, you would have Vokoun's 6 coming off the books so you could re-sign more players and go cheaper in net with Pickard or some other new goalie prospect.

i didn't like the idea of signing stamkos to and offer sheet at all until i read this post. Go for it avs!

Freudian 06-30-2011 07:21 AM

Tampa will insta-match that offer sheet. So it would be pointless to throw it out there.

Teams can exceed the cap ceiling by 10% in the off-season. They'll keep their young stars and find other ways to make it work if it's tight. It's not like Kings are going to let Doughty walk and then pay Stoll $3.5M/year.

niwotsblessing 06-30-2011 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avsboy (Post 34344069)
->NO

The idea of offer-sheeting anybody is SO CRAZY that now I'm agreeing with Avsboy! :help:

Drury_Sakic 06-30-2011 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freudian (Post 34346247)
Tampa will insta-match that offer sheet. So it would be pointless to throw it out there.

Teams can exceed the cap ceiling by 10% in the off-season. They'll keep their young stars and find other ways to make it work if it's tight. It's not like Kings are going to let Doughty walk and then pay Stoll $3.5M/year.

Even if you don't get the player, you do screw with the opposing teams cap situation, as in a perfect world I bet both clubs would like to get those guys in the 6.5ish range rather than 7.7. Regarding Stamkos, there is some thought that if the deal is front loaded a ton, there might be some issue from management in paying all the cash up front for Stamkos, Vinny, St. Louis, and company.

The internet talk, for what its worth, has speculated that 8 million would possibly be the number that Tampa would flinch at... and 7,835,219 is not that far away if you want to maximize the odds under the less than 4 1sts concept.

I am not saying it would work, but its the risk I would take if I were Avs management....and you never know... maybe you get lucky. Worst case, Tampa has to take on a bigger contract than they would have liked. Best case, you get one of the best players in the league at what I would consider a decent cap hit.


Also worth noting the Avs do have an extra 2nd rounder next year to help mitigate the pain of losing the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd next year.

asmodeanreborn 06-30-2011 08:53 AM

I know this sounds crazy, but I'm not sure I'd offer sheet Stamkos even if we got him - especially for 4 first rounders. Is he an amazing scorer? Yes. Do we need those 4 first rounders to acquire even more depth? Yes. It's not like this team will have a roster lock after the rebuild has finished. We will need to keep getting quality players in through our system.

Also, what happened to Stamkos down the stretch? 5 goals in 28 games? That's 14-15 goals over a full season... dangerous extrapolation, but shouldn't it be reason to make people nervous, especially seeing as how we have no slick setup guy like St. Louis.

CB Joe 06-30-2011 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic (Post 34348687)
I am not saying it would work, but its the risk I would take if I were Avs management....and you never know... maybe you get lucky. Worst case, Tampa has to take on a bigger contract than they would have liked. Best case, you get one of the best players in the league at what I would consider a decent cap hit.

Also worth noting the Avs do have an extra 2nd rounder next year to help mitigate the pain of losing the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd next year.

Worst case scenario is the Avs don't get Stamkos and have to sign Duchene, O'Reilly, and Johnson to bloated contracts the following season as retaliation for the offer-sheet to Stamkos.

Freudian 06-30-2011 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic (Post 34348687)
Even if you don't get the player, you do screw with the opposing teams cap situation

So you want a league where screwing with other teams cap situation is more common? The only ones benefiting from that are the players. The teams lose and the fans lose because they have to pay these inflated salaries one way or the other.

The trigger event for the insane inflation in player salaries that led to the lockout 2004 was Sakic signing a three year $21M offer sheet. Before that salaries were much more reasonable. After that, stars started making insane salaries. (Check what happened to top salaries after the summer of 1997).

Be careful what you wish for.

Starrlinx 06-30-2011 09:36 AM

No. Just no.

jfc64 06-30-2011 10:12 AM

One thing we need to start thinking about is that we only have these forwards under contract for the 2012-13 season:

Landeskog - Stastny
Hishon - Duchene
Galiardi - O'Reilly
Porter

Offer sheets to Stamkos and Doughty only makes sense if such a move makes us contenders and don't need any further draft picks etc.

So we have a few hard years in front of us before the fun could even begin to start.

Pirate Deadpool 06-30-2011 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13 (Post 34345551)
I believe they have, but even if they don't i would be reluctant to give 4 1st rounders for Doughty, only d-man i would give up 4 1st rounders without thinking twice is Weber, but he isn't avaliable for offer sheets.

Weber isn't even the best Dman on his team. I'll take Suter over Weber every time. But Weber does have a lot more "star" appeal which would be a bonus for marketing and national exposure.


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