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-   -   Best Flyer prospects since.....???? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=949211)

phillyfanatic 07-12-2011 01:44 PM

Best Flyer prospects since.....????
 
I can't remember the Flyers having in their system two first overall talents (Schenn 5th overall is comparable to Tavares and others in his draft class IMO, Couturier was ranked #1 at times last year).

As a Flyer fan, can you remember having prospects like this? The obvious is Richards/Carter. But, Richards was 22nd overall, a future leader/shutdown guy, he wasn't supposed to be as good as he was.

Any time else? I am racking my brain trying to remember prospects in our system like this. The last time I can remember having this level of prospect is when we had Ricci (4th overall) and Forsberg (6th overall) and then traded for Lindros).

Just curious?

Jester 07-12-2011 01:49 PM

Yeah, within year of the 2003 draft, the first round would have gone very different. Calgary is also on record as stating they would have picked Richards at 9 if Phaneuf hadn't fallen to them. 2003 was absurd, almost the entire 1st rd is contributing at the NHL level.

On paper, these guys may look a bit better, but Carter and Richards draft position should not be used against them.

MiamiScreamingEagles 07-12-2011 01:59 PM

Joni Pitkanen and Jeff Woywitka were interesting in that they were both drafted defensemen (first rounders), something lacking historically with the franchise, and had different talents as the 2003 camp approached.

Mgkibbles 07-12-2011 02:01 PM

Jvr.

usahockey22flyers 07-12-2011 02:36 PM

JvR in 07, 2nd overall.

Coppy 07-12-2011 02:44 PM

By 2008, it was pretty clear the Flyers had something special on their hands with Giroux. So I'd go with Giroux/JVR.

Jester 07-12-2011 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34949561)
JvR in 07, 2nd overall.

No disrespect to JVR, but his draft class was terrible.

1865 07-12-2011 02:57 PM

But he's not.

jd2210 07-12-2011 02:59 PM

I think that part of why we were all concerned about the prospects previous to these trades is because we have been accustomed to having some stud prospects in the system. Giroux, JVR, Richards, Carter, aren't the only ones. Although Downie was somewhat off the charts as 1st rounder he had high expectations on him. Sbisa was expected right from when we drafted him to be an impact player (although there aren't too many guys that TSN doesn't like on draft day), We were excited about Pitkanen, Zubrus,Wowitka, Williams, Oeullett, Gagne, Pelletier,. Ever since I have been a fan there has pretty much always been someone to be really excited about. I remember in 1989 or 90 or whenever we drafted Ricci and Renberg, you'd think we had drafted almost a whole team with the amount of picks we had, and a lot of those guys did turn out to be pretty great NHL'ers. I think we had like 10 picks in the first 3 rounds or something crazy like that.

edit: it was 8 picks not 10

Jester 07-12-2011 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1865 (Post 34950405)
But he's not.

He's not, but getting picked 2nd overall is not in itself a badge of honor. If he was in the 2003 class, for example, he would have gone much lower.

usahockey22flyers 07-12-2011 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 34950511)
He's not, but getting picked 2nd overall is not in itself a badge of honor. If he was in the 2003 class, for example, he would have gone much lower.

I disagree, when you go 2nd overall in a world of millions of junior hockey players, its an achievement.

As for the 07 draft, it's vastly underrated and filled with "late-bloomers", you'll see this in the 2018 Olympics.
Notables: Kane, JvR, Gagner, Voracek, Couture, Sutter, McDonagh, Eller, Shattenkirk, Backlund, Perron, Max Pacioretty

As for his placement in the 03 draft, he would have went 3-12 IMO.

His WJC stats are pretty impressive.

Jester 07-12-2011 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34951173)
I disagree, when you go 2nd overall in a world of millions of junior hockey players, its an achievement.

As for the 07 draft, it's vastly underrated and filled with "late-bloomers", you'll see this in the 2018 Olympics.
Notables: Kane, JvR, Gagner, Voracek, Couture, Sutter, McDonagh, Eller, Shattenkirk, Backlund, Perron, Max Pacioretty

As for his placement in the 03 draft, he would have went 3-12 IMO.

His WJC stats are pretty impressive.

You can't just make that a flat statement, however. For example, going 2nd overall behind Crosby, is not the same thing as going 2nd overall behind a "normal" no. 1 and it follows from there.

And I don't think there is anyway JVR goes that high in 2003 given the prevailing concerns about his game when he was drafted.

usahockey22flyers 07-12-2011 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 34951823)
You can't just make that a flat statement, however. For example, going 2nd overall behind Crosby, is not the same thing as going 2nd overall behind a "normal" no. 1 and it follows from there.

And I don't think there is anyway JVR goes that high in 2003 given the prevailing concerns about his game when he was drafted.

Sure you can, its the NHL draft! It's the best league in the world, and anyway, you do realize Patrick Kane is a point per game/all star player right?

And what concerns? Until he made the NHL, everyone was so high up on him, his WJC performances and playing in the best college hockey division is something to be proud of/noted of.

DUHockey9 07-12-2011 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyfanatic (Post 34947663)
I can't remember the Flyers having in their system two first overall talents (Schenn 5th overall is comparable to Tavares and others in his draft class IMO, Couturier was ranked #1 at times last year).

As a Flyer fan, can you remember having prospects like this? The obvious is Richards/Carter. But, Richards was 22nd overall, a future leader/shutdown guy, he wasn't supposed to be as good as he was.

Any time else? I am racking my brain trying to remember prospects in our system like this. The last time I can remember having this level of prospect is when we had Ricci (4th overall) and Forsberg (6th overall) and then traded for Lindros).

Just curious?

I like you phillyfanatic, but your homerism is just mind bottling sometimes ("You know, when things are so crazy it gets your thoughts all trapped, like in a bottle?").

First, you go and try to start making Schenn our #1C already, and now you're off saying we have two "first overall talents". Why is that necessary? Why make that distinction? Why can't we just deal in truths and think of them as a 5th and an 8th overall selection that are great prospects?

Jester 07-12-2011 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34952211)
Sure you can, its the NHL draft! It's the best league in the world, and anyway, you do realize Patrick Kane is a point per game/all star player right?

And what concerns? Until he made the NHL, everyone was so high up on him, his WJC performances and playing in the best college hockey division is something to be proud of/noted of.

And not all NHL drafts are created equal.

There were a lot of questions about JVR. The most damning were the questions about his compete level, and the level of play he had performed against.

usahockey22flyers 07-12-2011 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 34952537)
And not all NHL drafts are created equal.

There were a lot of questions about JVR. The most damning were the questions about his compete level, and the level of play he had performed against.

Compete level? He lead the WJC in points in 08. Check out the rosters, you'll know a few players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Wo..._Championships

Jester 07-12-2011 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34954215)
Compete level? He lead the WJC in points in 08. Check out the rosters, you'll know a few players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Wo..._Championships

And he came up small in the big games, which cast doubts on him.

I'm just telling you the scouting report, which is why there was a lot of debate about the 2nd pick in that draft.

hockeyfreak7 07-12-2011 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 34954809)
And he came up small in the big games, which cast doubts on him.

I'm just telling you the scouting report, which is why there was a lot of debate about the 2nd pick in that draft.



IIRC, there was as much debate about JVR not being #2 that year as there was about Kane not going #1.

In other words, there were small rumblings, but there was nothing to ever suggest that the Flyers wouldnt pick JVR.



2007 was not considered a bad draft class in 2007. Just like 2003 was not considered "the best draft of all time" in 2003.

2007 may have been "below average", and 2003 may have been "above average", but no one was prepared to label either draft class anything extraordinary at the time.

JVR was a far more hyped 1st round pick than either Carter or Richards were in 2003.

Jester 07-12-2011 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 (Post 34955071)
There was as much debate about JVR not being #2 that year as there was about Kane not going #1.

In other words, there were small rumblings, but there was nothing to ever suggest that the Flyers wouldnt pick JVR.



2007 was not considered a bad draft class in 2007. Just like 2003 was not considered "the best draft of all time" in 2003.

2007 may have been "below average", and 2003 may have been "above average", but no one was prepared to label either draft class anything extraordinary at the time.

JVR was a far more hyped 1st round pick than either Carter or Richards were in 2003.

Ah, it was considered terrible at the time. And by draft time there was no question about Kane going 1. There was a ton of talk about JVR, turris, Voracek, etc.

usahockey22flyers 07-12-2011 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 34954809)
And he came up small in the big games, which cast doubts on him.

I'm just telling you the scouting report, which is why there was a lot of debate about the 2nd pick in that draft.

Came up small in big games?

He scored in EVERY game he played in besides the bronze medal game. Up until the time he got drafted, he was a success at virtually every level, including high-school.

Jester 07-12-2011 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34955605)
Came up small in big games?

He scored in EVERY game he played in besides the bronze medal game. Up until the time he got drafted, he was a success at virtually every level, including high-school.

one of the knocks on him.

BringBackStevens 07-12-2011 06:17 PM

If these guys are "first overall talents", then that term is being stretched, a lot.

Fact of the matter is that as prospects they are not comparable to Tavares or they would not have dropped down to 5 and 8

usahockey22flyers 07-12-2011 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 34957085)
one of the knocks on him.

What are you talking about? How is high-school a knock on him?

Jester 07-12-2011 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34958493)
What are you talking about? How is high-school a knock on him?

Not a very high level of competition. Same concerns existed about Turris.

Bort Sampson 07-12-2011 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers (Post 34955605)
Came up small in big games?

He scored in EVERY game he played in besides the bronze medal game. Up until the time he got drafted, he was a success at virtually every level, including high-school.

Most people's eyes weren't on JvR in 2008(the year they reached the Bronze medal game). The next year most people were looking at JvR to dominate, especially given the talent around him.

The reason JvR didn't have as big an impact as most expected was Rolston's use of him. Rather than "showcasing" JvR's speed and shot, he played a stationary position in the slot or in the crease with Wilson sending pucks towards the net or slot. It's actually a pretty decent testament to his offensive prowess that JvR was still able to put up the numbers he did. Rolston coached the team poorly, leading to them not even reaching a medal game.

He was statistically impressive, but hardly made a huge impact. He rode shotgun to Wilson, and the US suffered because of it. That's not to say Wilson is a poor player, he's going to be very good and was a great player to harness within that setting. JvR was just wasted most games, and wasn't a go-to guy in his third year at the tournament (which raised a lot of questions).


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