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-   -   Kreider and the Love Affair with him? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=952643)

gotmonte 07-17-2011 04:58 PM

Kreider and the Love Affair with him?
 
I am curious as to why Rangers fans consider Kreider a near UNTOUCHABLE in any trade proposal even for Stamkos.

I love Kreider and all but could this thread depict all of Kreiders intangibles and the reasons Rangers fans flat out REFUSE to include him in ANY deal even if it was straight up for a known elite player?

I am not trying to be a troll or stirr up any arguments. I am sincerely looking for the real reasons (not just quick little stats on him).

Why would YOU not trade Kreider for an Elite player

This may be a quick thread and lock. It might turn into a crapfest but I respectably ask the Rangers fans to honestly depict just why he is such an untouchable

Thank you.

If you want to add video to support your argument that would be cool. I know scouting reports are great but a lot of scouting reports wind up wrong. Sang's.. He was rated pretty high.. Now look at him. I know thats just one person. Remember Brendl? LOL

Not saying Kreider will bust. NOT AT ALL. I think he is the REAL DEAL. But can you explain to me and other fans of other teams why you flat out say he is an untouchable?

Thank you

broadwayblue 07-17-2011 05:02 PM

He's not untouchable by any means. But considering he is arguably our top prospect nobody wants to move him for a complementary player. For Stamkos or another elite player on the right side of 30 is a different story.

Bleed Ranger Blue 07-17-2011 05:04 PM

Simply put, I think its because hes the first (still living) forward chosen in the first round since the lockout. With a team that needs extra offense, fans latch onto that, and his value becomes inflated.

Theres so many people who simply do not know what they're talking about analyzing his game, and even his intentions and motivations. Its absurd.

It would be a lot more refreshing to see people admit they dont know how Kreider will turn out, but will make a judgment on him when they get to see him play on a regular basis.

NYRangers16 07-17-2011 05:06 PM

I don't personally believe his but many fans look at the dark years leading up to the lockout as aperiod when we chased high-priced stars and traded our prospects too easilly. Many fans therefore view our strategy going forward through this lens. They think that if we trade prospects it will lead to doom; and they think if we keep them it will lead to success.

Personally, to me, it's not that cut and dry. There are prospect for star deals that set franchises up to win for decades. The key is to get players who aren't old or aging or in decline or having injuries pile up. But it depends on the prospect and the deal.

eco's bones 07-17-2011 05:07 PM

I don't believe that Tampa is going to move Stamkos--so that in that respect I think the whole point of this is moot. Were Tampa to move Stamkos to the Rangers and should Kreider be part of the package going back--okay depending on the entire package--what other players, draft picks, prospects we give up--it might be worth doing. So I'd include Kreider if it were absolutely necessary but there are limits to what I'd give up for Stamkos.

Bleed Ranger Blue 07-17-2011 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadwayblue (Post 35114887)
He's not untouchable by any means. But considering he is arguably our top prospect nobody wants to move him for a complementary player. For Stamkos or another elite player on the right side of 30 is a different story.

Wow, thats awfully nice of you.

In reality, Krieder would be a throw in for a trade like that.

broadwayblue 07-17-2011 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue (Post 35115419)
Wow, thats awfully nice of you.

In reality, Krieder would be a throw in for a trade like that.

I didn't say I expected to get Stamkos or an elite talent straight up for him. But I wouldn't be opposed to moving him in the right package. Unless I misread the OP, I was under the impression that's what he was talking about.

wolfgaze 07-17-2011 05:16 PM

Kreider and Thomas are at the very top of our forward depth chart as far as prospects in our system go... You can't understand the reluctance to move him (or Thomas for that matter)?

Beacon 07-17-2011 05:27 PM

Because no team's fans want to trade their top three prospects. This is true even if they have a wewk bunch and objectively are not spectacular talents. A guy like Hagelin would have been regarded as untouchable in Calgary, especially pre-draft because he would have been one of their top three prospects.

Fitzy 07-17-2011 05:28 PM

Who said he was untouchable for Stamkos???

slipknottin 07-17-2011 05:39 PM

You will never get the value at the prospect level for him that you would get once he is in the NHL and playing well.

If you think he is the "real deal" then you wait for him to get into the NHL and prove it.

If there are doubts he will make it at this level, then you deal him.

NorthlandPro 07-17-2011 06:08 PM

If Tampa was to do Kreider and Thomas plus 2 picks for Stamkos, done. Kreider is good. Is he a Stamkos? Doubt it. He is big and fast with an NHL shot. It remains to be seen what he becomes. He is not Hugh Jessiman.

Machinehead 07-17-2011 06:13 PM

Love affair? I can't stand the little cretin! :laugh:

BlueshirtBlitz 07-17-2011 06:15 PM

Do people still think we're trading for Stamkos, first of all? :shakehead

Second of all, he's not untouchable. But considering we won't be able to get a ransom for him straight up it's better to let him develop and see if he can become a 30g forward than trading for a complementary 20g guy.

Khelvan 07-17-2011 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY (Post 35116387)
Who said he was untouchable for Stamkos???

Probably the same person/people who wouldn't give up Prucha for Crosby.

Machinehead 07-17-2011 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khelvan (Post 35117989)
Probably the same person/people who wouldn't give up Prucha for Crosby.

The mental ward has internet access?

Kershaw 07-17-2011 06:30 PM

I've seen quite a few posts in which Kreider is untouchable for top players like Stastny, Yandle, etc. I've seen posts where many posters say he's a faster version of Eric Staal, which only makes me shake my head in shame. No wonder Hurricanes fans make the mockery of 'DubinskyRoszival2nd'.

The hype behind this kid is warranted on these reasons:
  • He's built like a tank
  • He's super fast
  • American Hero in the WJC
  • Played on USA men's national team

People always bring up these points, but they ignore that he wasn't really good for all that hype statistically. I'm probably in the minority, but I wouldn't mind him being moved as a package for a core left wing player. Someone like Loui Eriksson, or Patrick Sharp.

JeffMangum 07-17-2011 06:32 PM

He's highly valued by the fans because of the lack of [potential] top-6 LWers in the organization.

What we have now is:

Dubinsky, Wolski, Fedotenko, Avery.

In the system:

Hagelin, Kreider, Miller, Bourque, and the rest.

Kreider clearly is the safest bet of that group to become a legitimate top-6 player. It only makes sense to trade him if the team is getting an upgrade in that position, or the move enhances the team enough so that it's simply too difficult to pass up on. I don't think anyone considers him "untouchable" by any means, though. It just doesn't make sense to throw him in a hypothetical deal for ***** and giggles.

RangerFan10 07-17-2011 06:34 PM

I'm sure most people here are rational enough to realize if you can trade Kreider with whatever else for a guy like Stamkos, you do it.

HOWEVER, I guess since our only clearcut hole in the top 6 (or top 4 defense as well) is LW, and since Kreider is killing it in the NCAA, and projects to be a top 6 LWer, I can see why there's a "love affair." I could even ALMOST understand not wanting to give up Kreider in a Stamkos deal after signing Richards and already having Anisimov and Stepan on the roster.

Heck, I think Kreider is really the only forward prospect in our system right now other than maybe Zuccarello that I think fans can actually get excited about them making the team in a year or two and producing numbers.

nyrangers14 07-17-2011 06:46 PM

I think this one got everyone noticing his talent is for real.

JeffMangum 07-17-2011 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrangers14 (Post 35118441)

I think this one got everyone noticing his talent is for real.

Fixed the embedded text for ya, my man. Just gotta put the assortment of letters after the "=".

nyrangers14 07-17-2011 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Boyle (Post 35118483)
Fixed the embedded text for ya, my man. Just gotta put the assortment of letters after the "=".

lol thanks =P

RGY 07-17-2011 07:13 PM

I think part of it is that we have had trouble finding gifted/talented offensive forwards through the draft over the past decade. We had Cherepanov but he sadly passed away. It's also coupled with how much the NHL team has struggled to score in the last few seasons.

Kreider is certainly not "untouchable" but he's close to that definition. He cannot be just a "throw-in" in a trade imo.

I've seen him play both in person and on tv. What the scouts say about him is true; the size, speed, skill, shot, and ability to beat guys 1-on-1 are all there. He has what it takes.

Now I'm pretty sure it was Gordie Clarke who recently was saying the Rangers believe Kreider is ready for the NHL. Now I dont know how true that is, if they really feel that way, or if it's some kind of negotiating ploy. Or both. However, the Rangers have not rushed college prospects in their recent past. They didnt rush Hagelin. Stepan played 2 years at Wisconsin and they felt he was ready after that. They also felt that McDonagh after 3 years was ready. And both succeeded in their first NHL season. I have to believe if they think Kreider is ready then he probably is. All of those qualities he has make it tough to trade him.

And let's not turn this into another Stamkos discussion. We have one thread on that topic and it surely is enough.

gotmonte 07-17-2011 07:45 PM

Thank you for all the information.

As for the Stamkos part.. I just was saying as that was one of the players people said they refused to part with Kreider. But please dont take this as I am saying we are trying/should try/care to trade for Stamkos. I just threw his name in here as that was the latest UNTOUCHABLE KREIDER situations.

Thats all.




I love that video of Kreider.. but what scares me is thats really the ONLY video you see of Kreider when it comes to discussing his potential.

Yes he undressed that defenseman. And then made a nice move on the Goalie. But that D-man might just stink and made it easy enough for Kreider. I am not saying this is the case, just that ONE video over and over does not prove a case.

But I DO appreciate the video. As I love the moves he did pull :)


Keep em coming guys. And thank you for keeping this thread on the correct track :)
:yo:

SupersonicMonkey* 07-17-2011 07:58 PM

Kreider would be in a package for a (young) elite player, but no one is moving those players.

Kreider is liked by professionals who see him play, for specific reasons.

His size, strength, speed, hands, shot, grit, and character, team-first attitude, desire to win, and ability to show up and be a top performer in big game situations. He's also a work out fanatic.

He's regarded highly by people who are paid for their professional opinions. Not just fans. He's widely considered one of the top NHL prospects. Again, not just by fans.

Stats don't tell the story.

He's graduating early from a prestigious College. He wants his degree. No one has the right to tell him he's wrong for it. Especially not selfish hockey fans. Its important to him and his family. He's a serious student AND a serious athlete. Graduated early from a top Prep School where he was a star hockey player and lacrosse player, and will graduate early from a top College.

He will go pro after completing his studies next summer.

He did the same thing to get to BC.

The questions about his motivation to be a professional hockey player are unfounded. He wouldn't be wasting his time developing as a hockey player.

He will be the go-to guy this year at BC. He's no longer an underclassman. He will be on the top line, top PP unit, and most likely the top PK unit.

I have some issues with York, but he knows how to win, Kreider developed in a winning environment, he learned to pay his dues, he developed a two way game, and his offensive game hasn't been hurt at all. Those accusations are unfounded as well.

The Miller situation may/may not be riling up some of this.

But they're two different people. Miller doesn't care about his education the way Kreider does. So naturally their paths to the NHL will be different. And that's one of the factors considered when the Rangers drafted Miller. He made is clear prior to the draft that he would forego UND and the NCAA and play with Plymouth if his drafting team wanted that. But he also wants an ELC as a part of that compromise.

Luckily, we will be getting both players at roughly the same time because of Miller's desire to have his development expedited.

Kreider's decision to play his Junior year and earn his degree, which he worked hard for, doesn't mean he has any less intention on becoming a Pro hockey player, and doesn't mean he doesn't want to be a Ranger. It just means he felt he needed another year of NCAA hockey and wants his degree.

Teams aren't offering their elite young players. And using a player like Kreider in a deal for an aging player isn't the best course of action.

Rangers aren't dealing their top prospects or young players unless they ask for a trade (Grachev) or unless they're getting sufficient value.


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