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-   -   The Non-Russian Factor - NHL Theory May Become Obsolete (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=965783)

ShawnTHW 08-08-2011 10:18 PM

The Non-Russian Factor - NHL Theory May Become Obsolete
 
http://thehockeywriters.com/the-non-...come-obsolete/

VladNYC 08-08-2011 11:16 PM

Quote:

The Russian junior league doesn’t hold a candle to best junior hockey leagues in the world, with the MHL’s skill level being mediocre at best.
That's a gem right there :shakehead

The truth of the matter is it doesn't matter what round a Russian gets picked in. They are hurting them selves by coming over so early. Historically speaking, going to the CHL for Russians has been a big mistake.

ShawnTHW 08-09-2011 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VladNYC (Post 35778765)
That's a gem right there :shakehead

The truth of the matter is it doesn't matter what round a Russian gets picked in. They are hurting them selves by coming over so early. Historically speaking, going to the CHL for Russians has been a big mistake.

And some could argue that staying in Russia could hurt their development more so than coming over and adapting to the North American game. It's a moot point. I don't think it was a mistake for Galiev, Kabanov, Burmistrov, Yakupov, and now Grigorenko to come over. I think there will be many more players booking their tickets to come play in the CHL or USHL to start.

Night_Vole 08-09-2011 12:57 AM

The only success North American juniors can claim is Radulov, other than that they have been ruining promising prospects left and right.

In theory it would be nice if Russian prospects came over got acclimatized to the N.A game and than go on to become good players in the NHL. The stark reality is that most of them end up languishing in the minors or not given the right role to thrive and than end up getting frustrated and going back to Russia. At which point they are a shell of the player they could have been. I believe that reason for these disappointing results is that the shock of switching system in mid development is simply too much. The Canadian system is a lot different than Russian development so when players transfer too early their skills are not yet sufficiently honed and they end up losing precious years of development that they can't get back. The result is mediocre hockey players, as can be seen by the fact that Russia hasn't produced any elite talents in the last while.

Ideally players should stay in Russia till they are 21-22 at which point they should try to break into the NHL. Reason being that by than their skills should be more or less developed but the player is still young enough to adjust to the differences in N.A. hockey.

vorky 08-09-2011 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 (Post 35779923)
And some could argue that staying in Russia could hurt their development more so than coming over and adapting to the North American game. It's a moot point. I don't think it was a mistake for Galiev, Kabanov, Burmistrov, Yakupov, and now Grigorenko to come over. I think there will be many more players booking their tickets to come play in the CHL or USHL to start.

Are you kidding me? CHL is for europeans who can not make a senior team at home, who are mediocre not for future superstars like Yakupov and Grigs. Look at Ovi and Malkin, look at Gaborik, MPS. All came over after playing seniors at home. Now Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Dima Orlov. Grigs made mistake, you will see it. You will see difference amnog him and Kucherov (Tarasenko, Kuznetsov and others) after few years.

cska78 08-09-2011 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vorky (Post 35781683)
Are you kidding me? CHL is for europeans who can not make a senior team at home, who are mediocre not for future superstars like Yakupov and Grigs. Look at Ovi and Malkin, look at Gaborik, MPS. All came over after playing seniors at home. Now Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Dima Orlov. Grigs made mistake, you will see it. You will see difference amnog him and Kucherov (Tarasenko, Kuznetsov and others) after few years.

I have to agree, players become one-dimensional show-men.

Yakushev72 08-09-2011 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cska78 (Post 35783005)
I have to agree, players become one-dimensional show-men.

I believe they are fish out of water in the CHL. While good Russian hockey schools teach hockey skills better than anyone, there aren't enough opportunities to compete and gain experience in stressful, intense hockey situations. Hopefully, the MHL will be an antidote to sitting around until age 20 or 21 before getting significant playing time at the senior level. At ages 17 and 18, Russian kids don't have enough experience to go over and play a completely different style of hockey against kids who have been playing it since they were six years old! There are other factors that make it tougher for Russian kids as well. Big mistake by Grigorenko to go.

Yakushev72 08-09-2011 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 (Post 35777195)

They are called bloggers because there is no need or requirement to know anything about what you are talking about. This guy used every negative cliche about Russians that has ever been coined. Presumably, his research source is Don Cherry.

cska78 08-09-2011 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakushev72 (Post 35798595)
They are called bloggers because there is no need or requirement to know anything about what you are talking about. This guy used every negative cliche about Russians that has ever been coined. Presumably, his research source is Don Cherry.

ROFL

ShawnTHW 08-09-2011 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakushev72 (Post 35798595)
They are called bloggers because there is no need or requirement to know anything about what you are talking about. This guy used every negative cliche about Russians that has ever been coined. Presumably, his research source is Don Cherry.

Thanks for the kind words, but I am, in fact, Russian. Didn't mean it as a slight against the KHL/MHL. People are reading too much into that instead of the actual point of the story that with more and more top talent coming over, the Russian Factor may not exist in a couple of years.

Yakushev72 08-10-2011 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 (Post 35805289)
Thanks for the kind words, but I am, in fact, Russian. Didn't mean it as a slight against the KHL/MHL. People are reading too much into that instead of the actual point of the story that with more and more top talent coming over, the Russian Factor may not exist in a couple of years.

My response may be overstated. My opinion is that if more and more Russian talent actually comes to North America, its not a good thing in the development of those prospects. Also, the KHL and MHL need a fair amount of time to develop. They can't start at the top. Let's see where things stand 4 or 5 years from now.

cska78 08-10-2011 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakushev72 (Post 35811367)
My response may be overstated. My opinion is that if more and more Russian talent actually comes to North America, its not a good thing in the development of those prospects. Also, the KHL and MHL need a fair amount of time to develop. They can't start at the top. Let's see where things stand 4 or 5 years from now.

yes, mhl need to build up the rep. It's pretty clear - that it's one of the best junior league in Europe already.

Yakushev72 08-10-2011 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cska78 (Post 35812389)
yes, mhl need to build up the rep. It's pretty clear - that it's one of the best junior league in Europe already.

I think you are exactly right! If the MHL develops a reputation for high quality play, it could have the dual beneficial effect of encouraging kids to stay home, and also exposing more kids to high quality competition for development purposes.

ShawnTHW 08-10-2011 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakushev72 (Post 35811367)
My response may be overstated. My opinion is that if more and more Russian talent actually comes to North America, its not a good thing in the development of those prospects. Also, the KHL and MHL need a fair amount of time to develop. They can't start at the top. Let's see where things stand 4 or 5 years from now.

Understood. At this point, the KHL may not be as prominent of a league as the RSL was a few years ago, and the MHL is still a few years away at the very least to compete with the production of the CHL, but I will not disagree that Russian players need more time to develop.

Saying that the AHL a league that Russians should go through to develop is not a correct statement. I am not a fan of the AHL in terms of a development standpoint and for some Russians to go back to Russia is not a bad idea, but I do feel that young Russian players should come over to play in the CHL/USHL in order to become accustomed to the smaller ice surface and the rigors of the game at the NHL level. They need a taste of it instead of just getting thrown to the lions when they come into the league.

Yakushev72 08-10-2011 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 (Post 35825091)
Understood. At this point, the KHL may not be as prominent of a league as the RSL was a few years ago, and the MHL is still a few years away at the very least to compete with the production of the CHL, but I will not disagree that Russian players need more time to develop.

Saying that the AHL a league that Russians should go through to develop is not a correct statement. I am not a fan of the AHL in terms of a development standpoint and for some Russians to go back to Russia is not a bad idea, but I do feel that young Russian players should come over to play in the CHL/USHL in order to become accustomed to the smaller ice surface and the rigors of the game at the NHL level. They need a taste of it instead of just getting thrown to the lions when they come into the league.

It is true that the KHL is still in a developmental state, and it is well below the NHL at this point in terms of the quality and depth of players, but you'd have to explain to me how the KHL has failed to reach the heights achieved by the RSL, as I don't know what the RSL had that the KHL demonstrably lacks. Just ten years ago, many RSL teams were unable to make payroll for several months at a time. There are some individual KHL franchises that are strapped for cash, but the league has guaranteed payroll and, to my knowledge, no paychecks have been foregone.

The premise in saying "young Russian players should come over to play in the CHL/USHL in order to become accustomed to the smaller ice surface" suggests that the primary goal of young Russian players is and should be to play in the NHL. The fact is that as long as the KHL exists, and the NHL refuses to cooperate in developing a transfer agreement which pays the Russian Federation for what players are worth, the number of Russian players in the NHL is going to continue to annually decline from the current total of 28 players (that compared to 82 players in the 2000 season). There will be a dozen or less Russian superstars that will be lured over to the NHL by mega-bucks, and that will be it. The rest will have to choose between the AHL and the KHL. Money makes that an easy choice.

Secondly, the goal of the KHL is to recruit the best talent in the world to play in their league, led by Russians of course. If the pay and other benefits are good enough (KHL players pay no taxes at all in comparison to NHL players), it will create competition in Russia for young players to hone their skills in order to secure their financial future. We will see whether they succeed, but KHL owners hope to keep the best domestic products at home. The experience of Russian players in the AHL only serves to reinforce the aims of KHL owners.

Latgale_fan 08-18-2011 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 (Post 35805289)
Thanks for the kind words, but I am, in fact, Russian. Didn't mean it as a slight against the KHL/MHL. People are reading too much into that instead of the actual point of the story that with more and more top talent coming over, the Russian Factor may not exist in a couple of years.

The Russian junior league doesn’t hold a candle to best junior hockey leagues in the world, with the MHL’s skill level being mediocre at best.
Total BS

Stanislav Galiev may have been the catalyst for many young Russians to hitch a flight across the pond. Having been too young to enter the CHL, Galiev decided to try for an opportunity in the USHL before making the switch. He joined the Indiana Ice for the 2008-09 season and posted 64 points in 60 games with the team. His effort, skill, and determination to have a career in NHL made him the 1st overall pick in the CHL Import Draft by the Saint John Sea Dogs. Two years later Galiev became a third round draft pick of the Washington Capitals and an eventual Memorial Cup Champion.
You forgot to mention that he hasn't progressed stats-wise after that 1st USHL season not even a bit...

It's hard to see objectivity here. MHL is not CHL but due to the fact that the age limit is by year (or even more) higher than in CHL, it, imho, would be competitive... at least with USHL and Swedish J20 Superelit... And "Krasnaya Armija", the MHL champion, with its full last year's roster, with Grigorenko and Kucherov, Gusev, Marchenko would a big threat to all CHL teams...

vorky 08-18-2011 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latgale_fan (Post 36014951)
And "Krasnaya Armija", the MHL champion, with its full last year's roster, with Grigorenko and Kucherov, Gusev, Marchenko would a big threat to all CHL teams...

I agree

cheerupmurray 08-18-2011 01:16 PM

It's of course impossible to know, but I think it's a good guess that for most europeans going the CHL-route is a bad choice (for some it probably was a good idea like for example Landeskog). When players leave for NA at a early age it also drains the domestic junior leagues for talent. This leads to junior leagues of poor quality that doesn't produce many good players. This is probably a piece of the puzzle to what happend to the development program in Cech republic.

MHL seems to be a great idea to me, a good professionaly runned junior league in Europe. Sweden had the same chance with Superelit, to try to market the league, make it attractive for the best juniors in Europe and so on, but there seems to be no interest in that.

Isn't MHL trying to have too many teams though? (KHL has the same problem too I think) I for one think that the quality of a league is increased when theres fewer teams, since theres more competition over the spots, better games between more equal opponents and no easy games anymore.

vorky 08-18-2011 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheerupmurray (Post 36022481)
It's of course impossible to know, but I think it's a good guess that for most europeans going the CHL-route is a bad choice (for some it probably was a good idea like for example Landeskog). When players leave for NA at a early age it also drains the domestic junior leagues for talent. This leads to junior leagues of poor quality that doesn't produce many good players. This is probably a piece of the puzzle to what happend to the development program in Cech republic.

MHL seems to be a great idea to me, a good professionaly runned junior league in Europe. Sweden had the same chance with Superelit, to try to market the league, make it attractive for the best juniors in Europe and so on, but there seems to be no interest in that.

Isn't MHL trying to have too many teams though? (KHL has the same problem too I think) I for one think that the quality of a league is increased when theres fewer teams, since theres more competition over the spots, better games between more equal opponents and no easy games anymore.

what you writes about czech rep. the same problem is in Slovakia. Of course, leaving for CHL in not one and only problem, but it is one of problems, like you wrote.

MHL will have 32 teams next season. It is maximum. MHL B (second junior league) will have cca 20 teams divided geografically. It is unlimited number of teams in MHL B. Number of teams in MHL A can be reduced in future, but I dont have any info about it

cska78 08-18-2011 06:55 PM

MHL-A: Kapitan, Ladya, Olimpia, Sibir Snipers, Silver Lions - all should be relegated to the MHL-B

Latgale_fan 08-19-2011 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cska78 (Post 36032707)
MHL-A: Kapitan, Ladya, Olimpia, Sibir Snipers, Silver Lions - all should be relegated to the MHL-B

Sadly but I'd have to agree... There are many decent/good teams in MHL but there are some that just plain sucks (will suck).
But I think it'll be better in future where nobody can join MHL A anymore and we can see the teams really moving up/down. otherwise they take any half decent youth team to MHL at the moment...

cska78 08-19-2011 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latgale_fan (Post 36041629)
Sadly but I'd have to agree... There are many decent/good teams in MHL but there are some that just plain sucks (will suck).
But I think it'll be better in future where nobody can join MHL A anymore and we can see the teams really moving up/down. otherwise they take any half decent youth team to MHL at the moment...

the league is young and will shake itself out.

Yakushev72 08-20-2011 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cska78 (Post 36032707)
MHL-A: Kapitan, Ladya, Olimpia, Sibir Snipers, Silver Lions - all should be relegated to the MHL-B

Why is that Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk are so poorly developed in hockey? It would seem that those areas should be producing more hockey talent.

cska78 08-20-2011 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakushev72 (Post 36072095)
Why is that Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk are so poorly developed in hockey? It would seem that those areas should be producing more hockey talent.

not sure, in novosibirsk, they don't seem to be paying much attention to youth hockey, Kransoyarsk has been on the outskirts of hockey due to low $$$ support from the government. Krasnoyarsk is on the rise though.

Yakushev72 08-20-2011 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cska78 (Post 36073603)
not sure, in novosibirsk, they don't seem to be paying much attention to youth hockey, Kransoyarsk has been on the outskirts of hockey due to low $$$ support from the government. Krasnoyarsk is on the rise though.

I was glad to see Krasnoyarsk make an entry into the MHL. Hopefully, more focus on hockey and less on bandy (although bandy is a great sport).


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