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-   -   MLD2011 Sir Montagu Allan Rnd 1: Philadelphia Quakers (2) vs Pittsburgh Hornets (7) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=968137)

TheDevilMadeMe 08-13-2011 02:04 PM

MLD2011 Sir Montagu Allan Rnd 1: Philadelphia Quakers (2) vs Pittsburgh Hornets (7)
 
http://www.glassbangers.com/product_...97237_zoom.jpg

Philadelphia Quakers
Coach: Red Berenson

Red Green-Robbie Ftorek(A)-Bob McDougall
Tony Tanti-Nicklas Backstrom-Charlie Sands
Mike Krushelnyski-Michal Pivonka-Anders Kallur
Rick Dudley-Stephane Yelle-Mark Johnson(A)
Yevgeny Zimin, Alexander Uvarov, Alexander Bodunov


Phat Wilson(C)-Alex Smith
Bill Juzda-Kim Johnsson
Drew Doughty-Jim Dorey
Hal Laycoe

Daren Puppa
Joe Daley


PP1: Green-Ftorek-McDougall
Wilson-Doughty

PP2: Tanti-Backstrom-Johnson
Smith-Dorey

PK1: Yelle-Kallur
Johnsson-Juzda

PK2: Krushelnyski-Pivonka
Smith-Wilson

PK3: Ftorek-Johnson
Juzda-Johnsson


VS

http://www.logoserver.com/hockey/PittsburghHornets3.GIF

Pittsburgh Hornets
GM: Selfish Man
Coach: Al MacNeil
Captain: Mike Murphy
Alternate: Morris Lukowich
Alternate: Stewart Evans

Sergei Shepelev - Normie Himes - Wayne Babych
Morris Lukowich (A) - Tim Young - Shirley Davidson
Andre Pronovost - Art Jackson - Mike Murphy (C)
Dallas Drake - Mike Sillinger - Tom Fitzgerald
Spares: Sergei Brylin, John Cullen

Jim Morrison - Rick Smith
Bob Trapp - Hugh Bolton
Stewart Evans (A) - Colin White
Spares: Rocket Power, John Mariucci

Dwayne Roloson
Gilles Gilbert

PP1:
Shepelev - Himes - Davidson
Trapp - Morrison
PP2:
Lukowich - Jackson - Babych
Evans - Young

PK1:
Fitzgerald - Murphy
Smith - White
PK2:
Sillinger - Pronovost
Bolton - Evans


vecens24 08-13-2011 02:14 PM

I'll defitniely be interested to see how this goes. Had these two teams in totally different slots than where they ended up.

On first glance Selfish has quite possibly my favorite bottom 6 of the draft outside of Sillinger. I love Pronovost, Murphy, and Drake in particular.

BillyShoe1721 08-13-2011 04:54 PM

Be prepared for a battle. I'll be doing a player by player, line by line analysis. My first thought is that Pittsburgh is going to have trouble scoring goals. Their top 6 doesn't pack that much firepower, and their bottom 6 is not going to score much. Himes is a legit top 6er, but Babych and Young are here solely because of one big season each that they never came close to replicating again. Lukowich was only top 10 in points in the WHA once(2x top 9 in goals), Shepelev had a short but good peak in the early 80s, and Davidson was an early era guy that has some good finishes, but are inferior to his contemporary in my top 6, Bob McDougall. Combined with my strong two-way play throughout my forward corps, I think my team should be effective in shutting them down.

BillyShoe1721 08-13-2011 05:46 PM

1st Lines

Red Green-Robbie Ftorek-Bob McDougall

vs.

Sergei Shepelev-Normie Himes-Wayne Babych

The LWs Green and Shepelev are pretty different. Green is more physical and gritty and is better defensively, considering we know nothing about his defense, but that Shepelev was a negative in the defensive zone.

Quote:

It was a seemingly odd move, given that Shepelev's lack of training as a center often troubled his defensive game and his passing, two must-have traits of centers in the Soviet system. Shepelev was a winger at heart, wanting to rush the puck and cheat offensively looking for quick breaks instead of playing high and springing the wingers
Offensively, who is better? It's a tough call. Green was 3x top 16 in goals and led the league in assists one year, in addition to a good Senior league career. Shepelev had 42 goals in 103 international games, and 189 goals in 453 Soviet league games. I'd say they are pretty even offensively. Considering Green's advantage in physicality and defensive play, I think Green is the better overall player.

That takes us to Normie Himes and Robbie Ftorek. Defensively, I think Ftorek again has the advantage with his 6th in Selke voting in '85. Ftorek was also a notably gritty player despite his size, so I think that's another advantage for Ftorek. In terms of offense, it's tough to call. I'd say Ftorek is the better goalscorer. In terms of playmaking, Ftorek's got 3x top 5 in assists in the WHA, Himes has top 10s in the NHL in the early days. Advantage probably goes to Himes here. In terms of overall offensive ability, I'm not sure. Ftorek has some great quotes about his stickhandling ability and great hands. Himes was 7th in points once, Ftorek was top 7 in points in the WHA 4 times, winning the MVP award once as well. Himes has a 6th in Hart, but Ftorek was a 1st team all star and 2nd team all star in the WHA twice each. Overall, give me Robbie Ftorek.

That brings us to what I think is the biggest mismatch in the comparison of these 2 lines. Bob McDougall and Wayne Babych. Babych has the advantage in physicality and two-way play. We don't really know of any intangibles that McDougall brings. What he does bring is a lot of scoring ability, finishing 1st, 3rd, 3rd, and 7th(1st in goals/game) in goalscoring during his career. Babych had one great season, finishing 6th in goals but his next best is 44th and it gets worse from there. Despite having more intangibles, it's nowhere close to being enough to make up for a large, large gap offensively between the two. Bob McDougall is the more effective player here, no doubt.

Overall, the 1st lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. Philadelphia's line brings better defensive play, and has what I believe is the best offensive player in the series, Bob McDougall.

BillyShoe1721 08-13-2011 07:48 PM

I'd also like to announce a lineup change. Tony Tanti will be inserted into the lineup for Alexander Bodunov. The second line should read:

Tony Tanti-Nicklas Backstrom-Charlie Sands

My special teams units, to be added to the 1st post:

PP1: Green-Ftorek-McDougall
Wilson-Doughty

PP2: Tanti-Backstrom-Johnson
Smith-Dorey

PK1: Yelle-Kallur
Johnsson-Juzda

PK2: Krushelnyski-Pivonka
Smith-Wilson

PK3: Ftorek-Johnson
Juzda-Johnsson

BillyShoe1721 08-13-2011 08:15 PM

2nd Lines

Tony Tanti-Nicklas Backstrom-Charlie Sands

vs.

Morris Lukowich-Tim Young-Shirley Davidson

Tony Tanti and Morris Lukowich. In terms of offense, I give the edge to Tanti. They played around the same era so a straight up comparison is adequate. Tanti's goalscoring finishes of 11th, 13th, 23rd, 24th, 24th are much better than Lukowich's 17th, 30th, 39th and I'm not going to go further. Lukowich brings some physicality to the table. Neither is good defensively. I'd say an edge here goes to Tanti because of the larger gap in terms of offensive ability. Tanti's adjusted career goals/game is also better(.336 to Lukowich's .268).

That brings us to Tim Young and Nicklas Backstrom. I'd say Backstrom is easily the better player. Young has one big season(really his claim to fame), and it's still not as good as Backstrom's best. Young finished 5th in points, Backstrom was 4th and also has a 9th place finish. Add on Backstrom's superior two-way ability, 4th in all star voting, and superior adjusted career points/game(Young's .715 to Backstrom's 1.056). Even if you took Young's 4 best years to put him on an even playing field with Backstrom, Backstrom is still on top 1.056 to .8214. Pretty big advantage to Backstrom.

That brings us to Charlie Sands and Shirley Davidson. Sands definitely has an edge in defensive play where he was noted as being a good checker. Sands' 3 best goalscoring finishes were 8, 10, and 20. Davidson's were 2nd, 5th, 6th. Double Davidson's(I'm being generous to you here) finishes for league size, 4th, 10th, 12th. Offensively in terms of goalscoring, I think they're pretty much a wash. Add on Sands' added two-way ability compared to the pretty much non-existent Davidson intangibles, I'd say an advantage goes to Philadelphia here because of similar offense, but better intangibles from Sands.

Overall, the 2nd lines are a pretty big advantage to Philadelphia. Tanti is better offensively than Lukowich, Backstrom is better offensively and defensively than Young, and Sands and Davidson are pretty close offensively, but Sands' defensive ability tips it in Philadelphia's favor.

Dreakmur 08-13-2011 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35901751)
Their top 6 doesn't pack that much firepower, and their bottom 6 is not going to score much.

That's true, but neither team has many offensive weapons.

BillyShoe1721 08-14-2011 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 35904921)
That's true, but neither team has many offensive weapons.

I still think my top 6 packs more firepower than his does, and there is no question my bottom 6 packs more offensive punch with Pivonka, Krushelnyski, Kallur, and Johnson.

Dreakmur 08-14-2011 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35915317)
I still think my top 6 packs more firepower than his does

You're going to need to convince me - they look pretty equal to me.

Himes is slightly better than Ftorek. McDougall is better than Babych, and Shepelev is better than Green.

BillyShoe1721 08-14-2011 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 35915609)
You're going to need to convince me - they look pretty equal to me.

Himes is slightly better than Ftorek. McDougall is better than Babych, and Shepelev is better than Green.

Would you agree that the largest gap between them offensively, by far, is McDougall and Babych? I say that no doubt, it is. If you're looking at offense, then Himes might be a little better than Ftorek and Shepelev a little better than Green, but if you look at them as complete packages, Ftorek's grittiness, two-way ability, and leadership, and Green's physicality and better defensive play compared to Shepelev, I still like my guys better. The thing about Shepelev is, he was by far the 3rd most talented member of his line. Here are their goals/game domestically and internationally:

International:

Kapustin: 120 goals in 208 games(.5769)
Shalimov: 66 goals in 126 games(.5238)
Shepelev: 42 goals in 103 games(.4078)

Domestic:

Kapustin: 277 goals in 517 games(.5358)
Shalimov: 293 goals in 572 games(.5122)
Shepelev: 189 goals in 453 games(.4172)

I'm sure you'll be quick to point out that Red Green wasn't the best member of his line. That's true. Burch was the best player on that line, but I'd say Red was definitely 2nd best, ahead of Shorty. I think Shepelev rode more on the coattails of Kapustin and Shalimov than Green did with Burch. Red Green also has the strong Senior career to add to his resume.

vecens24 08-14-2011 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 35915609)
You're going to need to convince me - they look pretty equal to me.

Himes is slightly better than Ftorek. McDougall is better than Babych, and Shepelev is better than Green.

I agree with this. I think Himes is actually a pretty decent amount better than Ftorek. Quotes like this with Ftorek from Pelletier scare me with him:

Quote:

He had one good NHL season, his second with the Nords when he scored 24 goals and 73 points, but otherwise was shutdown. He had some injury problems and was getting on in age by the time he finally stuck in the NHL, but it just goes to show you the difference in quality between the two leagues.
Stuff like that makes me think the WHA was an extremely inferior league and that going against a guy like Tim Young (a bigger guy who was solid defensively), Ftorek will be shut down.

I also do agree with you though Billy that McDougall is the best offensive player in the series.

BillyShoe1721 08-14-2011 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 35916151)
I agree with this. I think Himes is actually a pretty decent amount better than Ftorek. Quotes like this with Ftorek from Pelletier scare me with him:

Stuff like that makes me think the WHA was an extremely inferior league and that going against a guy like Tim Young (a bigger guy who was solid defensively), Ftorek will be shut down.

Ftorek never let his size get in the way of him being an effective player. He would go into the corners with much bigger players than Tim Young and forecheck and still be successful. I know it's a very difficult comparison to make considering the era and league differences, but a look at percentages in top 10s shows that Ftorek was an elite player in the WHA(yes, it was the inferior league), but Himes has good finishes, but the percentages don't stack up nearly as well.

Goals:

Himes-68
Ftorek-94, 70, 60

Assists:

Himes-93, 71, 63
Ftorek-113, 87, 94

Points:

Himes-81
Ftorek-100, 92, 84, 84

Then it comes to how you compare the WHA to the early era NHL. It's not as though Ftorek was finishing behind bums, in all of his top 10 point finishes they were all behind guys selected in the top 900 of the ATD(Bobby Hull, Marc Tardif, Ulf Nilsson, Real Cloutier, Anders Hedberg, and Andre Lacroix). Yes, those guys have better supporting NHL careers(still not that great except for Hull obviously), or significant previous success in the WHA(Lacroix). But, is the gap really worth a couple hundred picks? Those guys I mentioned went 4, 467, 413, 726, 899, and 715 in the ATD. Ftorek went at 1,038.

BillyShoe1721 08-14-2011 05:57 PM

3rd Lines

Mike Krushelnyski-Michal Pivonka-Anders Kallur

vs.

Andre Pronvost-Art Jackson-Mike Murphy

Offensively, Krushelnyski is easily superior. His adjusted career .5229 PPG trumps Pronovost's .3974. It's not close. Defensively, I'd give a small edge to Pronovost, but it's certainly not as large as their gap in offensive ability. Krushelnyski is a better skater and stickhandler as well. Pronovost is probably a little more physical, despite being smaller. Overall, the largest gap between the two is the offensive gap, and that combined with better hands and speed make Krushelnyski the superior player.

That brings us to Michal Pivonka and Art Jackson. I'm not convinced Art Jackson is that strong of a player. His strongest years offensively came when Boston's top players left and he played with Bill Cowley and Herb Cain as the obvious 3rd best player on the line. Also in his previous years, I can't help but think he was getting some extremely favorable matchups. Schmidt-Cowley was a tremendous 1-2 punch to have, and they were definitely drawing the most attention from opposing teams in terms of matchups, leaving Jackson out against the weaker players on the other team. If you adjust Jackson's assist finishes to Pivonka's league size, Pivonka comes out as the much better playmaker. Pivonka has an edge in physicality as well. In terms of defensive play, Pivonka was called a top defensive center, and Jackson was just called a "checker". Overall, I like Pivonka as the better overall player with all things considered.

In Murphy and Kallur, we have 2 of the strongest penalty killers in the draft. Both were noted shorthanded threats, each with 19 career shorthanded goals. But, Kallur did it in less than half as many games(383 compared to Murphy's 831), so Kallur is the better shorthanded threat, and might be the best shorthanded threat in this draft. Looking at who was a better PKer, I'd take Kallur as both the better shorthanded threat and defensive PKer. Murphy has no notable Selke finishes that I could find, whereas Kallur finished 7th and 10th. Kallur is better defensively. Offensively, Murphy was a better point producer in the NHL, but Kallur does have a good resume from his years in Sweden. But, Murphy is probably a little better offensive overall. Kallur was known as being a great skater, I'd give him an advantage here as well. Murphy was a more physical player. All things considered, I think Kallur is the better overall player.

Overall, 3rd lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. Philadelphia's 3rd line is better offensively, and probably slightly better defensively as well.

vecens24 08-14-2011 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35916875)
Ftorek never let his size get in the way of him being an effective player. He would go into the corners with much bigger players than Tim Young and forecheck and still be successful. I know it's a very difficult comparison to make considering the era and league differences, but a look at percentages in top 10s shows that Ftorek was an elite player in the WHA(yes, it was the inferior league), but Himes has good finishes, but the percentages don't stack up nearly as well.

Goals:

Himes-68
Ftorek-94, 70, 60

Assists:

Himes-93, 71, 63
Ftorek-113, 87, 94

Points:

Himes-81
Ftorek-100, 92, 84, 84

Then it comes to how you compare the WHA to the early era NHL. It's not as though Ftorek was finishing behind bums, in all of his top 10 point finishes they were all behind guys selected in the top 900 of the ATD(Bobby Hull, Marc Tardif, Ulf Nilsson, Real Cloutier, Anders Hedberg, and Andre Lacroix). Yes, those guys have better supporting NHL careers(still not that great except for Hull obviously), or significant previous success in the WHA(Lacroix). But, is the gap really worth a couple hundred picks? Those guys I mentioned went 4, 467, 413, 726, 899, and 715 in the ATD. Ftorek went at 1,038.

To be honest, yes I do. Ftorek has no tangible track record of success playing in a top league. He came back into the NHL in what should have been his prime at 27 and couldn't crack the top 40 in points. Cloutier for instance is a guy that came in and was capable of finishing in the top 20 of scoring in the NHL a couple of times. Tardif came back and was well on his way to having a top 15 scoring season in the NHL before he got hurt that season. Ulf Nilsson was the same way. Anders Hedberg has a 21st in points upon returning. Lacroix is kind of a special case, as he played all of his prime in the WHA, but he did have a 25th and a 30th in the NHL in points prior to coming over to the WHA.

Ftorek just has no track record of high end success at a high level like Himes does. A good example of how I feel about Ftorek is a guy like Alexandre Giroux (clearly he was a better player than Giroux considering he could hack it in the NHL, but my point about the high scoring still stands) now who tops the AHL in scoring most years. He just for whatever reason in my view can't hack it when the competition gets more difficult for him.

Iain Fyffe 08-14-2011 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 35924085)
To be honest, yes I do. Ftorek has no tangible track record of success playing in a top league. He came back into the NHL in what should have been his prime at 27 and couldn't crack the top 40 in points.

He was 41st, right? And his first season back in the NHL he scored a point per game but only played 52 games, and at that pace would have been in the top 30 I believe. So I think you're overstating it.

vecens24 08-14-2011 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe (Post 35927693)
He was 41st, right? And his first season back in the NHL he scored a point per game but only played 52 games, and at that pace would have been in the top 30 I believe. So I think you're overstating it.

This is totally fair.

He had a half year of semi-decent scoring success at the NHL level. His best percentage score Vs3 (Gretzky and Dionne tied for first) if you extrapolate his numbers to a per game basis would have been 63%. Color me so impressed.

seventieslord 08-15-2011 02:18 PM

Billy, with no one here to defend this team, you're really going to town, so I have to address some things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35902647)
[Offensively, who is better? It's a tough call. Green was 3x top 16 in goals

Whoa there cowboy, let's not get carried away.

Green was 10th in goals when the NHL was one of three top leagues. Then 7th and 16th when there were two top leagues. Converted to post-merger figures, one could conclude that is like being 30th, 14th, and 32nd. There are other ways to determine how impressive those finishes are, but using a rough dirty method, that's what they look like.

In 1926, when he was 16th, there were only 40 forwards who played 28+ games. 16th out of 40 eligible forwards is nothing worth mentioning, other than his goals percentage was about 38%, or similar to having a 25-goal season in the 1980s.

Quote:

In terms of offense, it's tough to call. I'd say Ftorek is the better goalscorer. In terms of playmaking, Ftorek's got 3x top 5 in assists in the WHA, Himes has top 10s in the NHL in the early days....

...Advantage probably goes to Himes here. In terms of overall offensive ability, I'm not sure. Ftorek has some great quotes about his stickhandling ability and great hands. Himes was 7th in points once, Ftorek was top 7 in points in the WHA 4 times, winning the MVP award once as well. Himes has a 6th in Hart, but Ftorek was a 1st team all star and 2nd team all star in the WHA twice each. Overall, give me Robbie Ftorek
what do you mean, "early days"? This was post-merger and Himes was a top-20 scorer four times while carrying the offensive load for his team like few others in history have. He once had 50 points, no one else on his team topped 29. Even when he was 30th in scoring in an 8-team league he led his team. Offensively, I don't think these two are even close.

It's not an exact science, but based on what a number of players did when going to the NHL from the WHA, or vice versa, it seems the appropriate rate at which to convert the two currencies is about 0.65. Based on Ftorek's NHL performance, this appears to mostly hold true for him. It's fair to say that his WHA achievents at age 24-27 were all worth about 71-76 points, or about 55-65% in percentage scores.

Quote:

That brings us to what I think is the biggest mismatch in the comparison of these 2 lines. Bob McDougall and Wayne Babych. Babych has the advantage in physicality and two-way play. We don't really know of any intangibles that McDougall brings. What he does bring is a lot of scoring ability, finishing 1st, 3rd, 3rd, and 7th(1st in goals/game) in goalscoring during his career. Babych had one great season, finishing 6th in goals but his next best is 44th and it gets worse from there. Despite having more intangibles, it's nowhere close to being enough to make up for a large, large gap offensively between the two. Bob McDougall is the more effective player here, no doubt.
Well, you are right that McDougall is way better, BUT don't forget the fact that a line still has to "work". Babych is somewhat of a power forward, he's a big, burly guy who will go to the dirty areas and create space for this line. His offensive resume is very weak aside from one season, but he does have a role here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35904913)
Sands' 3 best goalscoring finishes were 8, 10, and 20. Davidson's were 2nd, 5th, 6th. Double Davidson's(I'm being generous to you here) finishes for league size, 4th, 10th, 12th. Offensively in terms of goalscoring, I think they're pretty much a wash. Add on Sands' added two-way ability compared to the pretty much non-existent Davidson intangibles, I'd say an advantage goes to Philadelphia here because of similar offense, but better intangibles from Sands.

Why not compare them in total points instead of just goals, which Sands seemed to specialize in? (his points finishes are 19, 27, 36, 38) You could triple Davidson's scoring finishes if you like, and he'd still have an enormous offensive edge on Sands. The kind of edge that is generally not surmountable by being a "pretty good checker".

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35916011)
I'm sure you'll be quick to point out that Red Green wasn't the best member of his line. That's true. Burch was the best player on that line, but I'd say Red was definitely 2nd best, ahead of Shorty.

Really, why?

1924 and 1925 are the only two seasons in which either seemed to do anything significant offensively at the NHL level. They both had 13 points in 1924, and Red outscored shorty 34-27 in 1925. I would conclude Red was better based on this, except the people who watched them play had other ideas. Shorty finished 9th in Hart voting with 28 points, Green was 14th with 8 points. Not sure what Shorty did better than him that year, but I'm sure it was something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 35928277)
This is totally fair.

He had a half year of semi-decent scoring success at the NHL level. His best percentage score Vs3 (Gretzky and Dionne tied for first) if you extrapolate his numbers to a per game basis would have been 63%. Color me so impressed.

You're being a little harsh on him, but if what I said about the 0.65 "exchange rate" earlier is correct, then Ftorek's offensive resume is similar to having six seasons at a 55-75% rate. That's Reichel/Stumpel/Boldirev/Chouinard/Gomez territory. that's not great for a 1st line center, but it's not so bad that he can't do an "OK" job there, either.

seventieslord 08-15-2011 02:26 PM

also, I noticed you compared Mike Murphy and Andre Pronovost in adjusted PPG. Careful with that. Keep in mind that adjusted points are based on playing "adjusted games" - i.e. if it's a 40 game season the totals are doubled to begin with - but if you don't use the adjusted game total you will end up getting a calculation that is way off.

with post-expansion guys you're mostly ok because the seasons have always been 78-84 games. but before that, with it being 70%, you're skewing things by 10-20%, and in this case it is to your disadvantage.

Pronovost's career GP for the purpose of your calculation would have to be multiplied by 1.14. that would make his career per-game average even lower than you stated.

vecens24 08-15-2011 02:33 PM

Oh no I am okay with Ftorek being a lower end first line center. I totally agree with that. I was more downgrading him compared to Himes, who is one of the top centers if not the top center in the draft.

BillyShoe1721 08-15-2011 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 35924085)
To be honest, yes I do. Ftorek has no tangible track record of success playing in a top league. He came back into the NHL in what should have been his prime at 27 and couldn't crack the top 40 in points. Cloutier for instance is a guy that came in and was capable of finishing in the top 20 of scoring in the NHL a couple of times. Tardif came back and was well on his way to having a top 15 scoring season in the NHL before he got hurt that season. Ulf Nilsson was the same way. Anders Hedberg has a 21st in points upon returning. Lacroix is kind of a special case, as he played all of his prime in the WHA, but he did have a 25th and a 30th in the NHL in points prior to coming over to the WHA.

Ftorek just has no track record of high end success at a high level like Himes does. A good example of how I feel about Ftorek is a guy like Alexandre Giroux (clearly he was a better player than Giroux considering he could hack it in the NHL, but my point about the high scoring still stands) now who tops the AHL in scoring most years. He just for whatever reason in my view can't hack it when the competition gets more difficult for him.

Fair enough. I personally think the WHA gets a bad rap around here and that people under appreciate what players have accomplished there. But, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 35942483)
Billy, with no one here to defend this team, you're really going to town, so I have to address some things.

Whoa there cowboy, let's not get carried away.

Green was 10th in goals when the NHL was one of three top leagues. Then 7th and 16th when there were two top leagues. Converted to post-merger figures, one could conclude that is like being 30th, 14th, and 32nd. There are other ways to determine how impressive those finishes are, but using a rough dirty method, that's what they look like.

In 1926, when he was 16th, there were only 40 forwards who played 28+ games. 16th out of 40 eligible forwards is nothing worth mentioning, other than his goals percentage was about 38%, or similar to having a 25-goal season in the 1980s.

Okay, your criticism of Red Green are valid. I honestly didn't know there were 3 leagues going on during that time that were on equal playing grounds. I'm still learning even though this is my 6th draft. You have no criticisms of Shepelev though. Who do you think is better overall? For my points about being the 2nd or 3rd best member of the line, I refer to my numbers about GPG between Shepelev and his linemates, and my stats about Red and Shorty later in this post.

Quote:

what do you mean, "early days"? This was post-merger and Himes was a top-20 scorer four times while carrying the offensive load for his team like few others in history have. He once had 50 points, no one else on his team topped 29. Even when he was 30th in scoring in an 8-team league he led his team. Offensively, I don't think these two are even close.
I misjudged when Himes was playing, should have checked that before I typed it. My bad. I'll concede there is a definitive advantage to Himes offensively. But, that is partially made up for Ftorek's advantage in two-way play, physicality, and leadership is it not?

Quote:

Well, you are right that McDougall is way better, BUT don't forget the fact that a line still has to "work". Babych is somewhat of a power forward, he's a big, burly guy who will go to the dirty areas and create space for this line. His offensive resume is very weak aside from one season, but he does have a role here.
I'm well aware that Babych brings those things to the table. That's why I wrote in my original post that he has an advantage in physicality and two-way play.

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Why not compare them in total points instead of just goals, which Sands seemed to specialize in? (his points finishes are 19, 27, 36, 38) You could triple Davidson's scoring finishes if you like, and he'd still have an enormous offensive edge on Sands. The kind of edge that is generally not surmountable by being a "pretty good checker".
That's comparing apples to oranges. Goals to goals is apples to apples. Goals to goals makes the most sense to me.

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Really, why?

1924 and 1925 are the only two seasons in which either seemed to do anything significant offensively at the NHL level. They both had 13 points in 1924, and Red outscored shorty 34-27 in 1925. I would conclude Red was better based on this, except the people who watched them play had other ideas. Shorty finished 9th in Hart voting with 28 points, Green was 14th with 8 points. Not sure what Shorty did better than him that year, but I'm sure it was something.
Well, Red scored at a better clip during their NHL careers. He scored at a .5954PPG while Shorty was at .5146PPG when they were both in the NHL at the same time from 23-27. And you can't point to age as a factor because they were both in their mid to late 20s. Add in the fact that during their time in the NOHA Red blew Shorty out of the water in terms of PPG(2.905 to 1.7692), I'm pretty confident that Red was the better player. Okay, Shorty has some fountains named after him and is in the HOF when he clearly doesn't deserve to be. Color me unconvinced that Shorty is even close.

seventieslord 08-15-2011 06:29 PM

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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35947915)
Okay, your criticism of Red Green are valid. I honestly didn't know there were 3 leagues going on during that time that were on equal playing grounds. I'm still learning even though this is my 6th draft. You have no criticisms of Shepelev though. Who do you think is better overall? For my points about being the 2nd or 3rd best member of the line, I refer to my numbers about GPG between Shepelev and his linemates, and my stats about Red and Shorty later in this post.

I'm going to plead the 5th about Shepelev. I don't know enough about him to say anything conclusively.

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I misjudged when Himes was playing, should have checked that before I typed it. My bad. I'll concede there is a definitive advantage to Himes offensively. But, that is partially made up for Ftorek's advantage in two-way play, physicality, and leadership is it not?
Maybe, maybe not. have you seen my Himes bio from MLD11? He was a pretty gutsy little player himself. Maybe at Ftorek's level, maybe not, or maybe the era and the fact that the NY Times was my only source of research two summers ago is what prevented it from being better-substantiated than Ftorek.

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Well, Red scored at a better clip during their NHL careers. He scored at a .5954PPG while Shorty was at .5146PPG when they were both in the NHL at the same time from 23-27. And you can't point to age as a factor because they were both in their mid to late 20s. Add in the fact that during their time in the NOHA Red blew Shorty out of the water in terms of PPG(2.905 to 1.7692), I'm pretty confident that Red was the better player. Okay, Shorty has some fountains named after him and is in the HOF when he clearly doesn't deserve to be. Color me unconvinced that Shorty is even close.
Yeah, he definitely pwnd in the OHA, no doubt. But I thought originally you were referring to their significant NHL seasons. For that reason I was talking about 1924 and 1925 in particular. it doesn't concern me a whole lot that red outscored Shorty 31-13 over the next two seasons when his associated percentages are 40 and 39 ;)

Iain Fyffe 08-15-2011 07:04 PM

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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35947915)
Okay, your criticism of Red Green are valid. I honestly didn't know there were 3 leagues going on during that time that were on equal playing grounds.

Mostly valid. Although there were technically three leagues in the first year mentioned, the other two played an interlocking schedule, making them effectively one league.

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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 (Post 35947915)
Well, Red scored at a better clip during their NHL careers. He scored at a .5954PPG while Shorty was at .5146PPG when they were both in the NHL at the same time from 23-27. And you can't point to age as a factor because they were both in their mid to late 20s. Add in the fact that during their time in the NOHA Red blew Shorty out of the water in terms of PPG(2.905 to 1.7692), I'm pretty confident that Red was the better player. Okay, Shorty has some fountains named after him and is in the HOF when he clearly doesn't deserve to be. Color me unconvinced that Shorty is even close.

I agree. To me Red is clearly the better player, Wilf being in the Hall for name recognition reasons only.

Iain Fyffe 08-15-2011 07:06 PM

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Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 35949185)
Yeah, he definitely pwnd in the OHA, no doubt.

NOHA, technically. Northern Ontario league that did not play against OHA teams until the Allan Cup playdowns.

Dreakmur 08-15-2011 07:51 PM

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Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 35949185)
Yeah, he definitely pwnd in the OHA, no doubt. But I thought originally you were referring to their significant NHL seasons. For that reason I was talking about 1924 and 1925 in particular. it doesn't concern me a whole lot that red outscored Shorty 31-13 over the next two seasons when his associated percentages are 40 and 39 ;)

Didn't Shorty play quite a bit of defense?

Either way, it doesn't really matter. The whole "he's better than Shorty" argument doesn't mean a whole lot when one's a first liner and the other is a fourth. WhaȚ really matters is how he stacks up against other first liners.

As for Shorty being in the Hall, I've already said it has more to do with his medical condition and career ending injury.

Iain Fyffe 08-15-2011 08:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 35951181)
Didn't Shorty play quite a bit of defense?

Not so far as I can tell.


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