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-   -   Blues/Isles fantasy proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=96911)

Darth Milbury 08-10-2004 11:12 AM

Blues/Isles fantasy proposal
 
To be clear, this is a complete fantasy proposal which has absolutely no possibility of happening.

That said, Blues are a team with an excellent defense, good netminding, and solid high end talent up front. They have a critical lack of depth on the wings.

Isles are a team with a good top four on defense, solid depth at center and on RW. They badly need some physical young defenders in their system, and a big strong LW'er.

So:

Trent Hunter for Barret Jackman - straight up.

Blues sacrifice their ROY dman, but get a ROY finalist winger. Isles give up a 25-goal winger who makes less than a million a year, but get a physical top four guy.

Thoughts?

NFITO 08-10-2004 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
To be clear, this is a complete fantasy proposal which has absolutely no possibility of happening.

That said, Blues are a team with an excellent defense, good netminding, and solid high end talent up front. They have a critical lack of depth on the wings.

Isles are a team with a good top four on defense, solid depth at center and on RW. They badly need some physical young defenders in their system, and a big strong LW'er.

So:

Trent Hunter for Barret Jackman - straight up.

Blues sacrifice their ROY dman, but get a ROY finalist winger. Isles give up a 25-goal winger who makes less than a million a year, but get a physical top four guy.

Thoughts?

interesting deal, value wise... not sure though it works for either team.

The Isles aren't exactly deep on the wing either... and I suspect they need a winger like Hunter, who can score, more than they need a top 4 dman... I'm assuming though that if the Isles add another dman like Jackman, then they deal one of their current top 4 for a winger from another team??

but considering that Hunter is productive, still young, and cheap, he fits what the Isles need much more than Jackman... with contracts like Yashin and Peca down the middle, a cheap productive winger is very valuable to that pay structure IMO.

for the Blues, the thing that would kill the trade IMO is their current defense, which isn't exactly that young... with MacInnis likely gone soon, and Pronger entering the last year of his deal before being a RFA under the current deal - and a good chance at being a UFA under a new CBA - they could have a much bigger need to keep a dman like Jackman around.

and despite coming off an injury-plagued season, Jackman is a year younger and in his rookie year a couple years ago, he was solid on the team's top pairing... his value no doubt took a hit due to his last year with injuries though, but it's not the time to deal him when his value is down and replacement for MacInnis is needed.

with the aging MacInnis though, Khavanov who's 32 now... Pronger on the last year of his deal, and really only a young Backman to anchor their defense for the future (and possibly Salvador, who's 28 now, but still very up and down at times), I think they need a guy like Jackman, much more than a player like Hunter.

:dunno:

guitaraholic* 08-10-2004 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
To be clear, this is a complete fantasy proposal which has absolutely no possibility of happening.

That said, Blues are a team with an excellent defense, good netminding, and solid high end talent up front. They have a critical lack of depth on the wings.

Isles are a team with a good top four on defense, solid depth at center and on RW. They badly need some physical young defenders in their system, and a big strong LW'er.

So:

Trent Hunter for Barret Jackman - straight up.

Blues sacrifice their ROY dman, but get a ROY finalist winger. Isles give up a 25-goal winger who makes less than a million a year, but get a physical top four guy.

Thoughts?

Laughable, from a Blues fan perspective. I mean, simply comical. Only real way of putting it. Barret Jackman is loved by the Blues fans and they'd eviscerate Pleau if he dealt them. Trent Hunter means nothing to the Blues fans. They already identify the team with Jackman so regardless of what the exchange reprents in terms of the value of the players there is simply no way Pleau deals Jackman.

Darth Milbury 08-10-2004 11:31 AM

Yeah, its a deal that hurts and helps both teams. I figured it would be that proverbial deal that fans of neither team likes, because it is reasonable in terms of value.

Drake1588 08-10-2004 11:36 AM

Value is very close, and it's a unique proposal, so it makes for an interesting thread. I myself am a bit higher on Jackman, though that is mere personal preference. Hunter is underrated, even by me. It makes for an interesting proposal to ponder, though.

Darth Milbury 08-10-2004 11:37 AM

Jackman's high end is probably above Hunter's. I think there is a natural bias in the league to overrate offensive players though, which might give Hunter more market value.

Darth Milbury 08-10-2004 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaraholic
Laughable, from a Blues fan perspective. I mean, simply comical. Only real way of putting it. Barret Jackman is loved by the Blues fans and they'd eviscerate Pleau if he dealt them. Trent Hunter means nothing to the Blues fans. They already identify the team with Jackman so regardless of what the exchange reprents in terms of the value of the players there is simply no way Pleau deals Jackman.


And, what part of "To be clear, this is a complete fantasy proposal which has absolutely no possibility of happening" did you have trouble understanding?

degroat* 08-10-2004 11:45 AM

Not that I wouldn't love to have Trent Hunter, but I don't think this trade is as reasonable in terms of value as you suggest. Young proven defensemen always have more value than young proven forwards simply because of supply and demand.

Darth Milbury 08-10-2004 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stich
Not that I wouldn't love to have Trent Hunter, but I don't think this trade is as reasonable in terms of value as you suggest. Young proven defensemen always have more value than young proven forwards simply because of supply and demand.


This is where I disagree, Stich. I think offense is overrated in today's NHL. In trades, award voting, etc, guys who put up numbers always command more attention. I think a young 25-goal winger will have more market value than a defensive dman. I'm not saying he SHOULD be worth more, or would have more impact on the ice. I just that that is what the market realities will dictate at the end of the day.

And, btw, just to fan the flames a little more, I don't think Jackman would have commanded significant ROY votes this year. Its not that he wouldn't have deserved them - its just that attention is always focused on stats in that kind of situation and there were so many kids this year with nice numbers.

degroat* 08-10-2004 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
This is where I disagree, Stich. I think offense is overrated in today's NHL. In trades, award voting, etc, guys who put up numbers always command more attention. I think a young 25-goal winger will have more market value than a defensive dman. I'm not saying he SHOULD be worth more, or would have more impact on the ice. I just that that is what the market realities will dictate at the end of the day.

I could see why you think that offense commands more attention especially on these boards, but GM's are different than fans. GM's understand that defense wins championships and GM's understand that young defensemen as good and proven as Jackman are few and far between.

Trottier 08-10-2004 11:56 AM

I'd trade Hunter for Jackman. But I'm a NYI fan. Hunter is, and should continue to be, a productive, two-way winger, a reliable 20 goal player who you can rely on nightly. Personally love players like him.

A very valuable player, albeit not a superstar.

Jackman, if healthy, has the makings of a rock on defense for years to come.

An even more valuable commodity in the NHL.

guitaraholic* 08-10-2004 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
And, what part of "To be clear, this is a complete fantasy proposal which has absolutely no possibility of happening" did you have trouble understanding?

so what is your point? We're supposed to respond differently just because you acknowledge your trade "proposal" is pure fantasy? The reasons it's a bad proposal and worthy of the response I bothered to give it is the same regardless of whether you preface your fantasyland proposal with a preface recognizing it's a fantasy.

NFITO 08-10-2004 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stich
I could see why you think that offense commands more attention especially on these boards, but GM's are different than fans. GM's understand that defense wins championships and GM's understand that young defensemen as good and proven as Jackman are few and far between.

I agree with Darth here on the value of players around the league.

I think it's backwards here... young defensive minded dmen will get more value here on HFboards, because - well they're young, and this board overrates prospects and young players more than anywhere else... the fact he won a ROY inflates that value even more here IMO.

but around the league - see what a GM is willing to give up for a guy like Comrie...

the value of a 24 yr old 25 goal scorer in today's game is going to be higher than a defensive dman that hasn't put up numbers (it's not his game of course to put up numbers)....

plus his injury last year IMO hurt his market value too... he's a good dmen, and IMO from the Blue's POV I wouldn't deal him for Hunter... but value wise I think in the NHL market it's a fair deal.... 25 goal scoring young forwards aren't easy to find... and unlike some young scoring forwads, Hunter isn't exactly one-dimensional either.

my concern though, with Hunter, would be if he just had a career season, or this is the type of player he really is... with Jackman my concern would be if he just had an unlucky season last year and had injury problems, or whether his body can keep up with his aggressive style and he can be a 70+ games/yr dman consistently.

degroat* 08-10-2004 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
see what a GM is willing to give up for a guy like Comrie...

see what a GM is willing to give up for a guy like Pronger

[Brendan Shanahan]

NFITO 08-10-2004 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stich
see what a GM is willing to give up for a guy like Pronger

[Brendan Shanahan]


I think that Pronger was already a bigger asset... taken 2nd overall in his draft year.

the difference between Pronger and Jackman... well I think it's close to the difference between Shanahan and Hunter ;)

Trottier 08-10-2004 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I think that Pronger was already a bigger asset... taken 2nd overall in his draft year.

the difference between Pronger and Jackman... well I think it's close to the difference between Shanahan and Hunter ;)

So too are their respective differences in salary. Hence, advantage Jackman and Hunter, in the eye$ of many GMs, who must consider all factors, unlike the fantasy traders on HF. ;)

degroat* 08-10-2004 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I think that Pronger was already a bigger asset... taken 2nd overall in his draft year.

the difference between Pronger and Jackman... well I think it's close to the difference between Shanahan and Hunter ;)

Not quite.

The Blues gave up a perennial All-Star power forward for a young defenseman. How many times have a team traded an All-Star defenseman for a young forward [that wasn't a salary dump]?

Rabid Ranger 08-10-2004 12:25 PM

I don't think the addition of a scoring winger in Hunter's class is as important as keeping Jackman. The Blues can, and no doubt will pick up a scoring winger or two to fill the void.

NFITO 08-10-2004 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stich
Not quite.

The Blues gave up a perennial All-Star power forward for a young defenseman. How many times have a team traded an All-Star defenseman for a young forward [that wasn't a salary dump]?

how exactly do you turn a talk about all-star power forwards (Shanahan) and a young dman (then in Pronger) to one about Jackman and Hunter?

your question makes no sense here... Jackman isn't an all-star dman... calling him one and then calling Hunter a "young forward" doesn't make sense.

Hunter isn't Shanahan... not even close... Jackman isn't Pronger.

when Pronger was dealt, he was still projected to be a top end dman... he jumped into the NHL as a 19 yr old, after being drafted 2nd overall and being named the best dman in the juniors that year, considered the best dman, by a good margin, in his draft year... in fact the next dmen drafted when 9 spots later that year.

Jackman was ROY in his first season, as a 21 yo... Hunter the up for ROY a year later, losing out to Raycroft, who had a great rookie season.

I think that if you are bringing up Pronger and Shanahan as comparison in trade value, then Jackman and Hunter are much more similar.

guitaraholic* 08-10-2004 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger
I don't think the addition of a scoring winger in Hunter's class is as important as keeping Jackman. The Blues can, and no doubt will pick up a scoring winger or two to fill the void.

A guy that can score 20+ goals playing on a line with Doug Weight can be had for free, his name is Martin Rucinsky... in time, any one of Sejna, Shkotov, Zakharov, Pohl, Soderberg, Alexandrov, will pan out and provide the Blues with the scoring forwards they need.

degroat* 08-10-2004 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
how exactly do you turn a talk about all-star power forwards (Shanahan) and a young dman (then in Pronger) to one about Jackman and Hunter?

your question makes no sense here... Jackman isn't an all-star dman... calling him one and then calling Hunter a "young forward" doesn't make sense.

Hunter isn't Shanahan... not even close... Jackman isn't Pronger.

when Pronger was dealt, he was still projected to be a top end dman... he jumped into the NHL as a 19 yr old, after being drafted 2nd overall and being named the best dman in the juniors that year, considered the best dman, by a good margin, in his draft year... in fact the next dmen drafted when 9 spots later that year.

Jackman was ROY in his first season, as a 21 yo... Hunter the up for ROY a year later, losing out to Raycroft, who had a great rookie season.

I think that if you are bringing up Pronger and Shanahan as comparison in trade value, then Jackman and Hunter are much more similar.

Once again, you're missing the point.

You claim that young defensemen aren't worth as much as young forwards.

The Blues gave up a perennial All-Star power forward for a young defenseman. How many times have a team traded an All-Star defenseman for a young forward [that wasn't a salary dump]?

NFITO 08-10-2004 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stich
Once again, you're missing the point.

You claim that young defensemen aren't worth as much as young forwards.

The Blues gave up a perennial All-Star power forward for a young defenseman. How many times have a team traded an All-Star defenseman for a young forward [that wasn't a salary dump]?

actually it looks like you missed my point.

I never said that young defensemen aren't worth as much as young forwards...

Jackman is worth a hell of a lot more than Jason King, for example.

I said, at least I thought I did, that defensive dmen aren't worth as much as scoring forwards :dunno:

I thought that's where the debate came from... that around the league the market value for offense is given more value than market value for defense?

Pure Slaughter Value 08-10-2004 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaraholic
Laughable, from a Blues fan perspective. I mean, simply comical. Only real way of putting it. Barret Jackman is loved by the Blues fans and they'd eviscerate Pleau if he dealt them. Trent Hunter means nothing to the Blues fans. They already identify the team with Jackman so regardless of what the exchange reprents in terms of the value of the players there is simply no way Pleau deals Jackman.

Was Pleau the GM when CuJo or Hull was traded...or is Pleau the GM because the previous one was eviscerated? Was there a trial? Evisceration's a pretty serious crime.

I'd definitely take Jackman over Hunter, but to say that Blues fans have ANY input over whether a player stays or goes is simply illogical, especially for a team that loses so much money a year with that support. There's too much evidence of fan favorites that gets dealt.

Barret Jackman means nothing to the Isles fans either as we have 4 defensemen that are better than he is....

Darth Milbury 08-10-2004 01:08 PM

PSV - I'd take Jackman over any Islander dman, with the possible exception of KJ.

Stich - You miss my point. I'm not saying that all young defensemen are undervalued - I'm saying that DEFENSIVE dmen tend to be overvalued. Other than deadline deals made by palyoffs bound teams, there haven't been a whole lot of deals in the last 10 years where a team overpaid for a defensively oriented dman. Maybe you could argue that the Isles overpaid for Peca, who is a defensively oriented forward.

The Pronger deal is fairly irrelevant. First of all, Pronger and Brendan Shanahan are in completely different leagues then these players. But, the other variable here is that Keenan was then GM of the Blues and he was dealing a guy who was in his doghouse. In addition, Pronger is not a defensive dman. Time has also shown that defensemen who have an offensive edge are overvalued on the market (unlike more defensively-oriented players).

Let's keep in mind that speculating about trade value is different then speculating about value on the ice. I think defensively oriented players can be extremely valuable, particularly at playoff time.

Nuckfan - Agree with all your points completely.

Pure Slaughter Value 08-10-2004 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
PSV - I'd take Jackman over any Islander dman, with the possible exception of KJ.

Interesting. I wouldn't at this point in time, but maybe by the end of the year I'd change my mind. Not convinced that a Rookie of the Year who missed some 70 games is a player I'd trade and Aucoin, Hamrlik or Niinimaa for


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