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End on a Hinote 09-17-2011 10:47 PM

Can (or will) the CHL develop a 4th league?
 
For those who don't already know, the Memorial Cup is the championship tournament at the end of the season that the winners of the 3 inner CHL leagues (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) and the host city compete in.

But some people feel that whenever a team that got to the tournament as a result of hosting it, not by winning their way in, and then eventually winning the championship (Kelowna Rockets in 2004), that it is a botched victory and/or should have an asteriks placed next to their name.

Here are maps displaying the teams in each of the 3 leagues:

WHL (23 teams)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ations.svg.png
*Chilliwack has since relocated to Victoria for the 2011/12 season*


OHL (20 teams)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ations.svg.png


QMJHL (18 teams)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ations.svg.png


So do people here think it would be wise for the CHL to merge, for example, some of the teams into its own league to create 4 smaller but competitive league rather than having the 4 team tournament with a free pass for the host team?

Also, could there be a risk in fan interest if their team, despite hosting the tournament, is not present in it?

timekeep 09-18-2011 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by End on a Hinote (Post 36792561)
For those who don't already know, the Memorial Cup is the championship tournament at the end of the season that the winners of the 3 inner CHL leagues (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) and the host city compete in.

But some people feel that whenever a team that got to the tournament as a result of hosting it, not by winning their way in, and then eventually winning the championship (Kelowna Rockets in 2004), that it is a botched victory and/or should have an asteriks placed next to their name.





So do people here think it would be wise for the CHL to merge, for example, some of the teams into its own league to create 4 smaller but competitive league rather than having the 4 team tournament with a free pass for the host team?

Also, could there be a risk in fan interest if their team, despite hosting the tournament, is not present in it?

Main reason for host team so they can sell out the building.

Can't see how a fourth league would work? Any suggestions?

Ruslan Zainullin 09-18-2011 03:48 AM

where are you going to put the 4th league? the states? because they seem pretty commited to preparing their 17-18 year olds for the NCAA. i think the system is fine, the team that wins the ohl, whl qmjhl finals is tops in their league, and the memorial cup is a cool tournament.

End on a Hinote 09-18-2011 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timekeep (Post 36796389)
Can't see how a fourth league would work? Any suggestions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruslan Zainullin (Post 36796665)
where are you going to put the 4th league? the states?

Here is what I came up with at the top of my head. I'm not expert on the subject but I understand how more difficult it can be considering the distance between the most eastern WHL and western OHL team, you have a major chunk of land with minimal population.

Here's what I thought:

http://s3.postimage.org/8zk5656qf/Untitledf.png

The square to the left would be the new WHL territory and the one to the right would be the new 4th League (Central Canadian Junior Hockey League?)

From there, maybe add teams in Winnipeg, Thunder Bay and a couple near boarder US cities (Billings? Duluth? Bismark?)

Arrange it so that there can be atleast 15 teams in both the WHL and the 4th League. The QMJHL only has 18 teams so 15 can't be that bad.


Quote:

Originally Posted by timekeep (Post 36796389)
Main reason for host team so they can sell out the building.

That's the only real concern I have. Personally, I would attend the Memorial Cup Final if it were held in my city regardless if my team was in it or not, but I'm not too sure about the majority of the population. The Memorial Cup is supposed to be the Super Bowl of junior hockey, and people should be going to games no matter who is participating, but I guess we won't know for sure what kiind of support the tounament would get unless they were to actually try a 4-league CHL.

bosshogg18 09-19-2011 11:40 AM

*Victoria is not an expansion team. They moved from Chilliwack.

WJG 09-19-2011 11:45 AM

I always thought it was kind of strange that Thunder Bay doesn't have an OHL team.

If Thunder Bay, Kenora and maybe Winnipeg all had teams, maybe there could be a league in Central Canada (SK, MB and NW ON)

Ruslan Zainullin 09-19-2011 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by End on a Hinote (Post 36799851)
Here is what I came up with at the top of my head. I'm not expert on the subject but I understand how more difficult it can be considering the distance between the most eastern WHL and western OHL team, you have a major chunk of land with minimal population.

Here's what I thought:

The square to the left would be the new WHL territory and the one to the right would be the new 4th League (Central Canadian Junior Hockey League?)

From there, maybe add teams in Winnipeg, Thunder Bay and a couple near boarder US cities (Billings? Duluth? Bismark?)

its interesting, not to nitpick or anything but they have had whl franchises in billings before that didnt work out, and college hockey is the big thing in minnesota and north dakota. not saying it wouldnt work, but it would be a tough sell. i mean, basically this is chopping up the whl right? i think youve found the way to do it, im just not so sure it would improve too much considering the whl prescence is already kind of weak in manitoba. interesting though.

End on a Hinote 09-19-2011 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruslan Zainullin (Post 36834643)
its interesting, not to nitpick or anything but they have had whl franchises in billings before that didnt work out, and college hockey is the big thing in minnesota and north dakota. not saying it wouldnt work, but it would be a tough sell. i mean, basically this is chopping up the whl right? i think youve found the way to do it, im just not so sure it would improve too much considering the whl prescence is already kind of weak in manitoba. interesting though.

Not really chopping the WHL, just amalgimating the furthest eastern teams into a new central Canadian league while adding a few more. You are right that it could be tough for them to get support from college hockey territory in the US, I was thinking of maybe just one team to represent that entire area of the northern States. Maybe even have half of the Alberta team in the league so as to avoid more expansion.

I can understand if the OHL didn;t want to add a 4th league, however. I mean, the main reason why I think a 4th league would be better is simply to avoid what some refer to as a "tarnished" Memorial Cup victory by winning it as the automtic host entry.

That, and due to Thunder Bay's unfortunate secluded location from other major junior hockey towns, may be the only way they will get a team.


Quote:

Originally Posted by bosshogg18 (Post 36834301)
*Victoria is not an expansion team. They moved from Chilliwack.

:pout:

Fixed to Ruin 09-20-2011 12:16 AM

I always felt that the CHL should tier itself (something along the lines of NCAA), rather than go to 4 leagues. Alot of players are holding out with the threat of going to a 3rd rate team. (see Angelo Esposito and Nathan MacKinnon).

Obviously the CHL would never do it since it would effectively devalue half of its membership at the expense of the other. However, I think by doing this the CHL would most likely place itself as the big #2 sport in the country. Like NCAA Football is to NFL football.

I know this is purely hypothetical, but here's my idea in a nutshell

The top division would be a national league, where all the top players would play. (ie. Crosby, Tavares, ect.) While the Div 2 are where the second rate players play, with the opportunity to move up if Div 1 if need be if Div 1 teams are interested.

Div 1 teams would be the following:

WHL
1) Vancouver
2) Calgary
3) Edmonton
4) Red Deer
5) Portland
6) Brandon
7) Saskatoon
8) Regina
9) one of the remaining WHL US teams (possebly Spokane?)

OHL (i'm not as familiar with the OHL)
1) Windsor
2) London
3) Ottawa
4) some sort of GTA representation (pick whomever out of the GTA area teams)
5) Plymouth
6) Peterborough
7) ????
8) ????
9) ????

QMJHL
1) Quebec
2) Gatineau
3) Moncton
4) Halifax
5) Cape Breton
6) Saint John
7) PEI
8) Drummondville or Chicoutimi
9) Shawinigan

With a 27 national league, you obviously have way more travel, but with the best young talent in the country concentrated into one league, i'm sure TV would be all over this as well as advertisers. Imagine Tavares vs. Crosby head to head during the season or in a playoff series. Imagine the top of the NHL draft class playing head to head on a nightly basis. Remember the Seguin vs. Hall hype when they met in the playoffs? Top prospects playing in the bigger buildings in Canada.

Players are already forcing themselves onto the elite teams in the CHL already. Thi way is great exposure for the players. It would be great hockey. The Memorial Cup would be meaningful since it would be awarded at the end of the playoffs. Not in some sort of round 5 tourny with Hosts and whatnot.

Tier 2 would be the remainder of the CHL. Obviously the teams would be of lesser quality and the games less meaningul. However i dont understand why we spread out our talent over 56 teams. Or why we expect top prospects to report to Dog River Saskatchewan or Northern Quebec over places like Edmonton, Vancouver, Southern Ontario, Ottawa where all the scouts are watching.

My 2 cents....
I know i'm a dreamer :nod:

wjhl2009fan 09-20-2011 02:42 PM

Devil4cup
Part of the appeal for players that go to small town is the hockeyt eam is the only show in town players are treated like rock stars.

WJG 09-21-2011 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by End on a Hinote (Post 36799851)
From there, maybe add teams in Winnipeg, Thunder Bay and a couple near boarder US cities (Billings? Duluth? Bismark?)

I think there could probably be a Central League if you moved the teams from:

Sault Ste. Marie
Sudbury
Brandon
Regina
Swift Current
Moose Jaw
Saskatoon
Prince Albert

out of their respective leagues and added teams in:

Winnipeg
Kenora
Thunder Bay
Rochester
Fargo
Sioux Falls

and maybe even give Minneapolis and St. Paul their own separate teams.

Flyers12 09-21-2011 02:44 PM

In the QMJHL, Lewiston was dissolve and Sherbrooke will arrive in 2012-2013.

Flyers12 09-21-2011 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJG (Post 36834467)
I always thought it was kind of strange that Thunder Bay doesn't have an OHL team.

If Thunder Bay, Kenora and maybe Winnipeg all had teams, maybe there could be a league in Central Canada (SK, MB and NW ON)

Why not?

WHL (16 teams) :

West division :

Everett
Kamloops
Kelowna
Portland
Prince George
Seattle
Vancouver
Victoria

Est division :

Calgary
Edmonton
Kootenay
Lethbridge
Medicine Hat
Red Deer
Spokane
Tri-City

MWHL (Mid-West Hockey League) (16 teams) :

West division :

Moose Jaw
Prince Albert
Saskatoon
Swift Current
Regina
One team in Montana
One team in North Dakota
One team in South Dakota

Est Division :

Brandon
Kenora
Sault Ste. Marie
Sudbury
Thunder Bay
One team in Wisconsin
Two teams in Minnesota
Winnipeg

OHL (18 teams) :

West division :

Erie
Guelph
Kitchener
London
Owen Sound
Saginaw
Sarnia
Plymouth
Windsor

East Division :

Barrie
Belleville
Brampton
Kingston
Mississauga
Niagara
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterborough

QMJHL (18 teams)

West division :

Blainville-Boisbriand
Drummondville
Gatineau
Sherbrooke
Rouyn-Noranda
Val d'Or

East division :

Baie-Comeau
Chicoutimi
Québec
Rimouski
Shawinigan
Victoriaville

Atlantic Division :

Bathurst
Cape Breton
Halifax
Moncton
PEI
Saint John

Loosie 09-21-2011 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyers12 (Post 36918483)
Why not?

WHL (16 teams) :

West division :

Everett
Kamloops
Kelowna
Portland
Prince George
Seattle
Vancouver
Victoria

Est division :

Calgary
Edmonton
Kootenay
Lethbridge
Medicine Hat
Red Deer
Spokane
Tri-City

MWHL (Mid-West Hockey League) (16 teams) :

West division :

Moose Jaw
Prince Albert
Saskatoon
Swift Current
Regina
One team in Montana
One team in North Dakota
One team in South Dakota

Est Division :

Brandon
Kenora
Sault Ste. Marie
Sudbury
Thunder Bay
One team in Wisconsin
Two teams in Minnesota
Winnipeg

OHL (18 teams) :

West division :

Erie
Guelph
Kitchener
London
Owen Sound
Saginaw
Sarnia
Plymouth
Windsor

East Division :

Barrie
Belleville
Brampton
Kingston
Mississauga
Niagara
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterborough

QMJHL (18 teams)

West division :

Blainville-Boisbriand
Drummondville
Gatineau
Sherbrooke
Rouyn-Noranda
Val d'Or

East division :

Baie-Comeau
Chicoutimi
Québec
Rimouski
Shawinigan
Victoriaville

Atlantic Division :

Bathurst
Cape Breton
Halifax
Moncton
PEI
Saint John

If anything like this were to happen, Sudbury would probably fight hard to stay in the OHL, you go from 9 hours to your furthest competition (Plymouth) to 12 hours to your second closest competition (Thunder Bay). Travel would be a huge problem.

To lesser extent the Sault would probably fight as well.

frontsfan2005 09-21-2011 03:37 PM

Western Hockey League (16 teams)

Pacific Division
-Vancouver
-Victoria
-Seattle
-Portland
-Spokane
-Tri-Cities
-Evertt
-Kelowna

Rockies Division
-Prince George
-Kamloops
-Kootenay
-Lethbridge
-Edmonton
-Calgary
-Red Deer
-Medicine Hat

16 teams, travel cut down as US teams and Pacific Coast teams don't have to travel to Sask and Manitoba. (Current longest trip is Portland to Brandon, takes about a 25 hour drive, new longest trip would be Portland to Medicine Hat, about 15 hours)


Central Canada League (14 teams)

West Division
-Swift Current
-Moose Jaw
-Saskatoon
-Regina
-Prince Albert
-Brandon
-Winnipeg (expansion)

East Division
-Grand Forks (expansion)
-Sault Ste. Marie
-Sudbury
-Thunder Bay (expansion)
-North Bay (expansion)
-Rouyn-Noranda
-Val d'Or

Travel is a HUGE issue in this new league, as well as expansion teams needed to fill in the map between the East and West teams. A Swift Current to Val d'Or road trip would take nearly 34 hours on a bus...... prehaps the league pays for air travel for some of the long road trips?

Ontario Hockey League (18 teams)
West Division
-Saginaw
-Plymouth
-Windsor
-Sarnia
-London
-Kitchener
-Guelph
-Brampton
-Owen Sound

East Division
-Mississauga
-Barrie
-Erie
-Niagara
-Oshawa
-Peterborough
-Belleville
-Kingston
-Ottawa

Same as now but with no Northern Ontario trips to Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie

Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (16 teams)

West Division
-Gatineau
-Blainville-Boisbriand
-Shawinigan
-Drummondville
-Sherbrooke (expansion)
-Victoriaville
-Quebec
-Chicoutimi

Maritimes Division
-Baie-Comeau
-Rimouski
-Acadie-Bathurst
-Saint John
-Moncton
-PEI
-Halifax
-Cape Breton

Same as now except no trips to Western Quebec to visit Royun-Noranda and Val d'Or


Obviously the newly formed Central Canada League has travel issues, but with a schedule format that limits the Western Most and Eastern Most teams from playing each other very often, it could work, but I would hate to see Swift Current and Val d'Or face each other in the finals (would have to be a 2-3-2 or possibly a 3-4 playoff format for it to work and limit travel) Also, just wanted to add that the divisions arent set in stone in anyways, I just worked with a map going from West to East.

Redhead90 09-26-2011 05:47 PM

I wouldn't mind seeing a forth league but I do have a problem with the OP listing the '04 Kelowna Rockets as an example. They were WHL champions the year before and the year after, plus there is a more recent examples (Vancouver 07)

End on a Hinote 09-26-2011 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redhead90 (Post 37129187)
I wouldn't mind seeing a forth league but I do have a problem with the OP listing the '04 Kelowna Rockets as an example. They were WHL champions the year before and the year after, plus there is a more recent examples (Vancouver 07)

That is actually one of the reasons why I listed them as an example. I remember people making comments and very few took exception to the fact that they were WHL champs. It seems, atleast to me, that even if you have an amazing record, people will still put down your accomplishment all because of the bye the host team gets for the tournament.

deanosaur 09-28-2011 10:04 AM

There's already a CHL expansion thread that was discussed.

And if you wanna see quality of CHL talent be watered down because of more teams, then go ahead.

Each new team you add, you create more bad quality teams in the league. And eventually the league would just turn into Junior A quality with some high end talent to show case. Terrible idea.

I'm also more confused as too why people always bring up these topics? Create new leagues! Add more teams. I sometimes wonder if any of you actually care about the quality of hockey, or rather than just making a big league for ***** n giggles.

CharlieGirl 09-28-2011 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devils4cup (Post 36861415)
I always felt that the CHL should tier itself (something along the lines of NCAA), rather than go to 4 leagues. Alot of players are holding out with the threat of going to a 3rd rate team. (see Angelo Esposito and Nathan MacKinnon).

Obviously the CHL would never do it since it would effectively devalue half of its membership at the expense of the other. However, I think by doing this the CHL would most likely place itself as the big #2 sport in the country. Like NCAA Football is to NFL football.

I know this is purely hypothetical, but here's my idea in a nutshell

The top division would be a national league, where all the top players would play. (ie. Crosby, Tavares, ect.) While the Div 2 are where the second rate players play, with the opportunity to move up if Div 1 if need be if Div 1 teams are interested.

Div 1 teams would be the following:

WHL
1) Vancouver
2) Calgary
3) Edmonton
4) Red Deer
5) Portland
6) Brandon
7) Saskatoon
8) Regina
9) one of the remaining WHL US teams (possebly Spokane?)

OHL (i'm not as familiar with the OHL)
1) Windsor
2) London
3) Ottawa
4) some sort of GTA representation (pick whomever out of the GTA area teams)
5) Plymouth
6) Peterborough
7) ????
8) ????
9) ????

QMJHL
1) Quebec
2) Gatineau
3) Moncton
4) Halifax
5) Cape Breton
6) Saint John
7) PEI
8) Drummondville or Chicoutimi
9) Shawinigan

With a 27 national league, you obviously have way more travel, but with the best young talent in the country concentrated into one league, i'm sure TV would be all over this as well as advertisers. Imagine Tavares vs. Crosby head to head during the season or in a playoff series. Imagine the top of the NHL draft class playing head to head on a nightly basis. Remember the Seguin vs. Hall hype when they met in the playoffs? Top prospects playing in the bigger buildings in Canada.

Players are already forcing themselves onto the elite teams in the CHL already. Thi way is great exposure for the players. It would be great hockey. The Memorial Cup would be meaningful since it would be awarded at the end of the playoffs. Not in some sort of round 5 tourny with Hosts and whatnot.

Tier 2 would be the remainder of the CHL. Obviously the teams would be of lesser quality and the games less meaningul. However i dont understand why we spread out our talent over 56 teams. Or why we expect top prospects to report to Dog River Saskatchewan or Northern Quebec over places like Edmonton, Vancouver, Southern Ontario, Ottawa where all the scouts are watching.

My 2 cents....
I know i'm a dreamer :nod:

How is killing half of each league a good idea? I understand what you're saying, and it would eliminate the haves/have nots from each league. However, I'm a firm believer in the 'if you build it, they will come' approach. There are teams in each league where the program is weak, management isn't interested in doing it right, and parents and players want to avoid the place. Windsor is a prime example of a team that was a "hell no" franchise until Rychel & Co. took over. It's now considered one of the premier destinations for a junior aged player.

Isn't it better to encourage teams to elevate their franchise rather than bringing down the rest to match them?

End on a Hinote 09-28-2011 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deangamblin (Post 37196319)
There's already a CHL expansion thread that was discussed.

And if you wanna see quality of CHL talent be watered down because of more teams, then go ahead.

Each new team you add, you create more bad quality teams in the league. And eventually the league would just turn into Junior A quality with some high end talent to show case. Terrible idea.

I'm also more confused as too why people always bring up these topics? Create new leagues! Add more teams. I sometimes wonder if any of you actually care about the quality of hockey, or rather than just making a big league for ***** n giggles.


The populatiry and demand for hockey is on the rise every year. I'm only suggesting adding a couple more teams to balance everything out. For the most part, amalgimation is the key answer for a 4th league, not expansion.

The WHL has the most number of teams in the CHL at 23, so why not split the league in two so as to create an even 4 team league and have to avoid a token host city competing in the Memorial Cup tournament?

wjhl2009fan 09-28-2011 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by End on a Hinote (Post 37202957)
The populatiry and demand for hockey is on the rise every year. I'm only suggesting adding a couple more teams to balance everything out. For the most part, amalgimation is the key answer for a 4th league, not expansion.

The WHL has the most number of teams in the CHL at 23, so why not split the league in two so as to create an even 4 team league and have to avoid a token host city competing in the Memorial Cup tournament?

The only issue is what if the ohl adds 4 teams in the next 10-15 years do you then add a 5th league?

End on a Hinote 09-28-2011 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan (Post 37203651)
The only issue is what if the ohl adds 4 teams in the next 10-15 years do you then add a 5th league?

No, but that could be the best time to start a 4th league


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