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-   -   Old Topic - Brought up by LG again. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=989695)

Ribban 09-23-2011 02:32 PM

Old Topic - Brought up by LG again.
 
So, the old discussion about the SEL expanding to 14 teasm again... (yes, I know)

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=4712476

I did think it was worth bringing up again given the point LG makes and from what we have seen in terms of Växjö and AIK being competetive in the SEL.

In the past I was a huge proponent for increasing the # of teams and perhaps also closing the league. These days I am more of a skeptic, and I have to say that I wonder if Växjö's and AIK's temporary success can be made key elements in this debate.

Växjö can be anything this year. How do we know this early on?

AIK made it to P-O last year (congrats), but they were a mere puck or two away from joining SSK and the HA teams in the relegation series last year. Success?? How are they doing financially? I don't know, but two years ago, they said AIK couldn't survive unless they joined the KHL a.s.a.p., so how is it with that nowadays?.. the SEL is for sure not KHL.

More importantly than Växjö and AIK, what happened with the teams that got relegated? If we should have room for 14 teams in the SEL, one would think that it should be a mere formality for the former teams to bounce right back, right?

RBK made it back to KS, but it certainly wasn't done the easy way, and they posed no threat to any of Växjö, Modo, or SSK.

SSK is looking like a former great battleship, still afloat, but with nothing more than a few fragile threads holding the hull together, forget having any sails or cannons to get back into any battle of significance.

My point is, unless we close the SEL and make everything under it "the swamps," AKA Div 1, I don't see there being enough financial resources and player material to support a competetive SEL of 14 teams.

Please feel free to tune in on this, and if you have a thought on what budget and players team 13 & 14 could put forth in a potential SEL expansion, please take a stab at it. I don't see how it could be done.

Dosing 09-23-2011 02:59 PM

There's definately enough quality in HA to compete but money wise? Still with the new junior program we soon got enough good players to have 14 competitive team's without paying ****loads for "stars" It will take a while but imo it will happen.
If/when it happens i wonder how they decide who goes up tho, and how long untill the expansion. There's gonna be alot of crying from clubs that they didn't have enough time to really go all out financially, if they only have like 1 year after it goes officiall to get into the "chosen few zone"

cheerupmurray 09-23-2011 03:48 PM

The gap from elitserien and Allsvenskan isn't very wide anymore. There's a whole lot of good players in Allsvenskan (lots of them young) that could make a smooth transition to a higher level. Increasing SEL with two more teams wouldn't mean a huge dip in quality.

But would it be a good thing? The best thing that happend to Allsvenskan was losing a couple of teams. Theres more media focus on that serie now, lots of the games are televised which make it easier to make money from advertisments. Theres a whole lot more buzz around the series on a whole. It's seems more like a professional league now when they cut a couple of teams that had no plans and funds (theres still a couple of them left like Sundsvall and so on).

Right now swedes are doing fairly well in KHL, if Fredrik Warg can do great, so can a fair amount of other players from SEL. What happens if Elitserien starts to loose high amounts of players both to NA and to KHL every year. Elitserien isn't in the best of shape right now anyhow and it's possible that the league will loose even more good players in the future.

Theres quite a lot of talent coming out of Sweden every year right now, but it's not a sure it will continue like this forever. To increase SEL with two more teams now might be the wrong move.

The ideal would be to have a SEL-1 with 12 teams, SEL-2 with 12 teams and a SEL-3 with 12 teams. That way there would be a third league for teams with ambitions and a good development league for players that can't yet cut it in the two highest tier of competition. (right now I think a lot of decent players that could be latebloomers ends up in bad division 1 series and eventually end their careers. If you don't make SEL or SEL-2 as a firstyear senior you have a uphill struggle to become a serious professional hockeyplayer.)

Edit: Increasing fotbollsallsvenskan with a lot of surplus teams, was a bad misstake. Instead of exciting games between classical teams every round we got a lot of teams that are in the middle of the pack and have nothing to play for and a lot of Häcken-Mjällby. Games got to be interesting and have meaning to excite the fringe audience that doesn't always show up. Almost every news you hear about fotbollsallsvenskan is that it's losing audience and that the quality sucks, I remember when it was hottest thing around a couple of years ago before they added those extra meaningless teams.

Everlasting 09-23-2011 03:54 PM

I agree that increasing SEL is a good idea, as long as they close the league after it.

Malmö and Leksand would be great aditions. Maybe Södertälje and Rögle too if the league woild be expanding to 16 teams.

And then alot of other changes on top of that. Like new playoffsystem and maybe even smaller rinks... etc.
Too me this would make Elitserien very refreshing.

His Beardliness 09-23-2011 04:35 PM

Get this european league going instead.

cheerupmurray 09-23-2011 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin929 (Post 37001637)
I agree that increasing SEL is a good idea, as long as they close the league after it.

Malmö and Leksand would be great aditions. Maybe Södertälje and Rögle too if the league woild be expanding to 16 teams.

And then alot of other changes on top of that. Like new playoffsystem and maybe even smaller rinks... etc.
Too me this would make Elitserien very refreshing.

To steal the most interesting teams from Allsvenskan and then close Elitserien would kind of kill off Allsvenskan don't you think?
That's what happend in Finland at least, Mestis has always been kind of crappy, but it became even worse after they closed FEL. Theres a huge gap between the first and second tier in Finland, pretty few players ever come out of that league.

Right now Allsvenskan is working as a feeder league to SEL, a bad Allsvenska= no more place for borderline elitserie players to develop, plus kind of lowers the interest for hockey in places that will have no SEL-team.

Dunno that's just my two cents, maybe you thought it trough better than me.

I agree that we need smaller rinks though

Systemfel 09-23-2011 07:03 PM

I remember someone suggesting that all Allsvenskan teams should just be invited to join the SEL. "If they don't want to, or are unable to, screw 'em. What are clubs like, for instance, Bofors and Sundsvall doing? Are they trying to make Kvalserien? No, they're just floating around."

What do you guys think of that?

Ribban 09-24-2011 02:57 AM

I guess I'd be interested in knowing what kind of gross sales or, even better, revenue the SEL clubs are looking at, and how this compares to the HA. Anybody know?

With two more teams, there might be more games with more trips, etc. Granted the clubs should make some revenue from each additional game, it might not be enough to cover the additional expenses... someone mentioned GAIS and Mjällby, and I can imagine we have similar match+ups in hockey already... Unless Örebro gets in and saves the day (everybody's secret favorite), it'd be awful to see Malmö and Södertälje (yawn) mix it up with Timrå, Brynäs, Linköping, etc.

However, if we indeed have enough players to put together 2 more teams in the SEL today (and like someone mentioned, what happens if the well of promissing Jr's runs dry in a year or two), then the teams in the league still has got to be able to bear it financially, which I don't think is the case with Allsvenskan in soccer for the moment (how many Allsvenska teams are profitable today?).

The other element of soccer, which we don't have as much of in hockey, is the possible revenue (profits?) that can be generated if the teams is successful on the continent. I get the idea of how more teams in a league is diluting the talent on each team, but I truly wonder if it would matter as much to the SEL as it did to Swedish soccer from a revenue point of view.

Anyway, I was a bit dissapointed when I in Aftonbladet read that the SEL president, Jörgen Lindgren, apparently had not been asked the obvious follow up question to his comment, "We've made a decisions, and 12 teams is the optimal # of teams."

I'm not saying 12 teams aren't the optimal # of teams (I'm sure they know this better than I do), but it would be fun to know what sort of data they have looked at and how they used their info to make that conclusion.

Ribban 09-24-2011 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Systemfel (Post 37009955)
I remember someone suggesting that all Allsvenskan teams should just be invited to join the SEL. "If they don't want to, or are unable to, screw 'em. What are clubs like, for instance, Bofors and Sundsvall doing? Are they trying to make Kvalserien? No, they're just floating around."

What do you guys think of that?

Dunno if that was me, but my main problem with having people say that nobody could move up or down in a closed league is rather silly. THe difference is that in a closed league, you would apply for promotion based on several factors, one being your economy, home arena, perhaps history, and why not results in the league below.

The league as a whole would probably not mind an addition if such addition could make a strong case for being profitable, and also help generate more revenue for the other members as well. On that note, If you're not progfitable, and you bring everybody down a notch, you could and should get kicked out/relegated.

Its all about money either way, so why not drop the farse and be upfront about it. It could also allow teams to give some promissing Jr's more ice time during a rebuild year, as opposed to have them breaking thier financial backs by signing poorly scouted talent talent from god-know-where just to make a desperate last ditch effort to avoid relegation.

It could work either way, but in general, I see that closed leagues tend to work fairly well, as long as their is a good chunck of common sense and flexibility built in to the constitution of such endeavor

Everlasting 09-24-2011 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheerupmurray (Post 37005773)
To steal the most interesting teams from Allsvenskan and then close Elitserien would kind of kill off Allsvenskan don't you think?
That's what happend in Finland at least, Mestis has always been kind of crappy, but it became even worse after they closed FEL. Theres a huge gap between the first and second tier in Finland, pretty few players ever come out of that league.

Right now Allsvenskan is working as a feeder league to SEL, a bad Allsvenska= no more place for borderline elitserie players to develop, plus kind of lowers the interest for hockey in places that will have no SEL-team.

Dunno that's just my two cents, maybe you thought it trough better than me.

I agree that we need smaller rinks though

Yes, but i wouldnt mind sacrificing allsvenskan to make SEL better :naughty:

KRM 09-24-2011 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin929 (Post 37030123)
Yes, but i wouldnt mind sacrificing allsvenskan to make SEL better :naughty:

What, you don't want to see decent hockey in the Sundsvall-Timrå derby next season? ;)

Jonimaus 09-24-2011 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Systemfel (Post 37009955)
I remember someone suggesting that all Allsvenskan teams should just be invited to join the SEL. "If they don't want to, or are unable to, screw 'em. What are clubs like, for instance, Bofors and Sundsvall doing? Are they trying to make Kvalserien? No, they're just floating around."

What do you guys think of that?

I would not mind it at all. Teams like Rögle, Leksand, Södertälje and Malmö (probably forgot 1 or 2) belong in SEL. Give Malmö a year or 2, and I don't even think they would be bottom-feeders. I am all for a 16 team SEL.


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