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05-16-2008, 12:17 AM
  #280
CM Lundqvist
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island
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Fletch, Chariot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'd actually rather have a Jagr at 50% than an Ortmeyer at 115% - I do care about effort, but in the end, I care more about results than effort, if that makes any sense. I hate to see guys dog it, but do have to admit that many can dog it and produce far better than the little engines that could, but can't produce. Not how I'd make up a team, but I can deal with it if the result is more wins.
I understand and agree, results are what matter most. In New York, that's how it is with fans. We've seen guys like John Starks boo'ed to death, not because of a lack of effort, but results... his game 7 air-ball fest against Houston, after he shot the lights out in game 6. A little OT, sorry, but I felt it was a good reference of a player who was always known as a hard-working blue collar player that got boo'ed for not coming up big in a certain spot.

Yes, there are guys that can dog it, and still produce more than others based on skill alone. However, my point is that Jagr is not there anymore. If Jagr was able to go a full season with at that pace, and still have it for the playoffs, we could have been the #2 seed, and that could have been the difference between the possibility of winning the cup and the reality of what happened this year. Yes, it's great to have that player that has that overdrive gear that he can kick into when it's crunch time, but if it takes the entire season for that player to kick into that gear, and he's getting older as it happens, what's the point of having him? Next year, him hitting that gear is a total question mark, like you go onto say in the later parts of your latest reply to me.

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And as I've said numerous times, I'm not necessarily saying go sign Jagr - I am poking holes in other options compared to Jagr, and each option depends on a person's desired result for next season.
I think everyone wants the team to win, but I personally would sacrifice a season or two if it could further bolster a chance down the road to win a cup, or even win multiple cups... Tavares should be on some people's minds, especially those people who have been dying for a homegrown superstar out of the net. Something we haven't seen since Brian Leetch.

I think the team is going to regress, as Jagr has become like Forsberg, Selanne, and Niedermayer and can't do a full year at full blast anymore. Not only that, but he's getting older, and it's getting easier and easier to stop him. Can Jagr rebound? He's got the skill to, but the odds stacked very high against him, and 10-12 million for 2 years is not exactly the kind of gamble I'd like to take, especially when there are other areas that the team needs to improve upon that we could address in this year's UFA pool.

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I believe Jagr still has talent. I believe that Jagr can still carry guys on his back - just not as much as he's done in the past and he does need his linemates to pick up a little slack. I also believe that since this team has had such a dependence on him the last three seasons that him leaving leaves a big hole and I'm not convinced the kids, and the vets here, are ready to fill that and perhaps some kids, especially those still coming up through the ranks, may need a bit more time. Perhaps there's a trade out there that may make sense and help things - but I just don't know.
Fair enough.

I agree that his linemates could pick up the slack, but I'll argue that by saying that it's hard to do so when you have a player that wants everything to be run a certain way. Not having Nylander hurts right now, because if Nylander came back and Jagr had a better season, or showed signs that he could be more durable and effective over the span of the season, it would be an easier decision. Now, it's such a gamble. We've already gone through what could happen, so I'm not going to bother saying it again. The kids won't be ready now, but do you really think they're going to be ready to step in and not having growing pains in 2010? Their rookie years are going to be a feeling out process, and that's guaranteed, especially being that we have maybe one rookie forward that is of the caliber of a Kane/Toews/Backstrom kind of rookie, in Cherepanov. He's the only one I could see coming up and putting up some very respectable numbers in his rookie year, and that's not even a sure thing.

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The thing about Jagr is he's been here for a few years. He knows the system, knows the coaches, knows the rink, fans and such. As I said in another post, it's sometimes better to go with the devil you know than the one you do not. But of course, everything has a price and the price needs to be right. And of course, Jagr may have his own mind already made up.
He knows the system and the coaches, but each year, the system has gotten tighter, and Jagr has become less effective. This team is playing more and more of a North American game each year, and Jagr's production has gone down along with it. It's definitely not a coincidence either. Do you really want to bring back someone whose numbers are plummeting along the course of a new style being brought in? Someone who goes against the grain of where the team is going?

I agree that sometimes the best thing to do is to use the path that's been walked down already. The problem is, that path has changed, vastly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
like i said before, i was trying to think outside the box....

rolston is my ideal replacement for shanny, who says we need to replace jagr?....leave his spot open on dubinsky's wing for a young player and make that the third line

i like hagman and i think he would be a good addition

you dont like my trades?
I agree with Rolston being Shanny's replacement.

The questions that arise are what young player comes in on Dubinsky's wing, and who is going to play 1st line wing at that point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont understand this argument. Obviously we have built from the goal out. Lundqvist, Tyutin, Staal, Girardi, Sauer, Sanguinetti, Potter plus some FA signings should be more than fine. Why give up assets to get someone else in here when we already have a pretty good foundation on defense.
Potter is a marginal prospect, nevermind marginal NHL'er.

This guy would be lucky to crack an NHL lineup one day, I don't know why he's mentioned as much as he is.

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This team is now in dire need of top 6 forward talent. If anything, Id be much more inclined to package some defenseman to obtain a young forward than can score.
That's not a bad idea considering there's some talent in the UFA market that could help us, and we have assets to trade.

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Originally Posted by The Chariot View Post
Dubinsky Callahan and a 1st in 08 for Suter?

not feeling it, no
Definitely not.

Not for Suter, I wouldn't even trade Dubinsky for him straight up.

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Pitkanen had a horrible year in Philly before he was traded to the Oilers and, although I didnt see the Oil play to many times this season, his stats at least arent that improved. I mean hes no longer a minus 25 but still I think they could do better for Tyutin + Prucha. His only advantage would be if infact Renny played him on the point on the PP and we both know how that will go....
Renney should have had Staal out there on the point, he was the only defender that could get his shot through to the net with any such sort of consistency this year. It would be poor asset management for the Rangers to trade away assets for a power play qb for Renney and Pearn to misuse.

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