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12-10-2008, 05:58 AM
  #57
dedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
I'm simply saying this team has talent
And I'm simply SHOWING you that this so-called goal scoring talent is not evident in the players' past performances with OTHER coaches. In Jagr's case I'm actively refuting your position with Jagr's numbers, and the numbers are what you refuse to deal with here. The supposed talent is a mere article of faith for you. It's a mantra you keep chanting, but it's one not supported by fact. For all your insistence on the scoring talent of this team, you've yet to address the facts presented concerning the actual numbers on these players. Fletch has done a better job of that, and he's not even buying your base position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
if utilized by their strenghts they will score more.
You mean the same strengths that kept Gomez from scoring more than 20 his entire career? The same strengths that has Drury surpassing 30 goals only twice in his? The strengths that have Naslund declining as he reaches his mid-30s?

Those strengths?

Again, you recite your mantra, blithely ignoring what the history (or lack of history in some cases) of these players tells us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
So from now on , everytime we get a player we can never expect him to PROGRESS in any which way than what his historical record shows. Whats the point of getting Zherdev then?.. The guy only had 26 goals last year and less than that the previous. People improve man, thats how it is.
1. Stop with the strawman. If you cannot present an argument to the actual issue at hand, do yourself a favor and walk away. Logical fallacies make you look like a fool.

2. Is it your contention that 9, 10, and 16 year NHL veterans improve in their goal scoring capabilities? I'll buy that if you can bring me some evidence to support it. Show me a substantial body of players who scored MORE goals in their 9th NHL season than in any season before. Then find me a body of players who are scoring more goals over the age of 30 than they have under the age of 30.

Do those things and you'll have taken a step towards empirically proving that we should expect improvement in Gomez, Drury, and Naslund.

3. On Zherdev: First - why should I (or you) take it as a given his scoring will go up as a result of improvement? You say his goal scoring went up last year in CBS, yet you neglect to mention that it went DOWN from the previous year. Zherdev scored more goals in fewer games in 05-06 than he did in the following two years. Given your blanket faith in "improvement," this simply shouldn't be - or perhaps his coach was stifling his improvement there, too?

He has a prorated 19 goals for his first season. He scored 27 his second. A prorated 11 in his third. He scored 26 last year.

Instead of blaming Renney, maybe we look at that and say, "for all his talent, the kid's just not a big-time scorer."

Second - But if you want to say Renney is stifling Zherdev because he's a kid with talent who's not had time to show his real potential, fine. Leave it at that and stop saying Renney's bringing the whole offense down, because Zherdev's case is NOT the same as that of the veterans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
Combined with set lines and a mroe offensive system this team will score more.
Without doubt.

It will also surrender more goals. It is then for Renney to decide if the goal scoring prowess of these players will produce sufficient production to offset the increased goals allowed. The goal scoring history of all the players you insist are "scorers" does not support the case that they will suddenly produce enough goals to offset more goals scored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
I never said this team is loaded with scoring talent, i merely said they HAVE talent and its not being utilized correctly.
Well I appreciate the fact that your statements are becoming more tempered, but your thread title places the problem nowhere but on Renney. It specifically states that personnel is NOT the problem, and you say in your first thread "Zherdev, Gomez, Dubi, Cally, Korpedo, Drury, Naslund. These guys can score."

Those statements taken together say a LOT more than "Renney isn't getting the best out of his players."


Last edited by dedalus: 12-10-2008 at 07:03 AM.
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