Thread: Prospect Info: NCAA, European & Juniors discussion
View Single Post
04-02-2009, 05:38 PM
eco's bones
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 13,506
vCash: 500
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think Doyle have a whole diffrent quality level then Byers and Dupont especially, but also in some ways then Callahan.

Doyle is special in that sense, no doubt. He actually reminds somewhat of Alexi Cherepanov in his offensive game. Natrually without the Russian flare. Like he is a player who can score a bunch of goals by just processing things faster then everyone else. I was really suprised when I saw Doyle in that sense; I would say that his abilitys in some small areas are very rare.

But the competition in the hockeyworld right now is really tough. 20 years ago he could have become a Luc Robitaille type of scorer. These days you have to be really well rounded just to stay with the flow in the NHL. Doyle isn't that. His engine isn't top notch. He doesn't have a modern NHL movement scheme so to speak, he takes allot of shortcuts on the ice. Its a small example, but in one game that I saw Doyle was pretty active on the ice, forchecked some et c -- and the hometeam commentators made a comment like "Doyle is really gooing tonight, something we havne't seen all that much this season". (this was like in early december)

Another side with Doyle is the physical aspects. He will never become a Hollweg type of hitter. But he can definitly handle himself and seems like a player who is pretty calm on the ice most of the time, but who really gets gooing when he gets pissed. Someone you don't push around -- he seems to "see red" so to speak.

The bottomline when it comes to Doyle is that he definitly isn't on track to make the NHL. There is no doubts about that. If you take a player like Sanguinetti its easy to tell that if everything goes well, he will play in the NHL, its only a matter of time really and how good he will become. He just needs to get experience and improve a little all over the board. Doyle will never even remotely make the NHL as the type of player he is today, he have to change his game and adopt to a completely diffrent role. But with the amount of hockey he have in him, with the temprament he have and such I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of him making that transition. I wouldn't.

I think Doyle illustrates the state of the hockeyworld really well. Lets say that Chris Doyle, Wojtek Wolski and Mike Riberio played for a same team. If their team during a practise played 5 on 5 in one zone against one goalie Chris Doyle probably could play on the same level as thoose two. While Wolski and Riberio can skate in the NHL, Doyle probably would just keep up in the AHL -- in normal games. Like a Blair Betts is darn good in 90% of the game of hockey. In 90% of the game of hockey there is probably only like 60 hockeyplayers who are noticeble better then him. No matter how talented you are in the top end abilitys, its thoose 90% that makes or breaks careers. Even 4th lineers in the NHL, and 3rd lineers atleast in the AHL can play at a really high level in thoose 9/10th's of the game -- if you won't cut it in thoose 9/10th, it doesn't matter how talented you are in the last 10th.

Like Callahan I think Doyle have the ability to become a effective NHL player. He can score from some range. He doesn't need allot to work on. He got a heavy shot. He can pass the puck allot better then Cally too. But Doyle "just" needs to get to a level were he can hold his own on like 3rd line in the NHL. Allot needs to be done for him to get there, but I think he potentially have that potential-

When it comes to Byers I would say that allot of pices are there -- but not everything. He isn't especially good in any area -- not compared to a NHL player. A player like Byers can make it playing exactly like he does, without needing to improve much all over the board -- if he is a really good skater. Its easy to point at players in a wide range from guys like Colby Armstrong to players like Antoine Vermette and co -- and find that they are actually really good skaters these days. Its hard though to find a Colby A or Antoine Vermette in the NHL who is just a avg skater, or avg, the avg skater in the NHL today is really fast. A player with the talent level of Byers just needs to have great wheels to make it to the NHL, there are no if's and but's about it. The Alex Giroux's never become successful NHLers...

And Byers probably could improve his skating enough. I don't think he got any intangible thats holding him back. It will take extremely hard work et c, but thats no news. However, a major knee injury isn't exactly what the doctor would prescribe...

Dale Weise doesn't have a ton of hockey in him. He is very 1-dimensional.

I once played with a pretty gifted finn who kind of was a failure. He loved to critizise every hockeyplayer. And every know and then he called players he saw on his own team or on the opposition for "the train" (in finnish). I didn't really understand him and asked about it -- like a train to me sounded pretty positive. Like hard to stop and what not. He answeared something like "you can set your watch after watching him play, he doesn't read the ice and does the same things all the time".

I would say that Weise is a typical train. But he is really good at what he does best. He is kind of like Dubinsky and Korpikoski in that sense. Like Dubinsky does some things well offensivly, he do them so good that it doesn't really matter if he plays in the AHL or NHL -- he will succed with them. I think it will be the same with Korpikoski down the line. Like there are plenty of examples of players who gets their pts in the AHL from stickhandling eights around D's and like scores 90 pts, but when they get to the NHL they can't beat a single D and scores 0 pts and are sent down. With playeres like Dubinsky and Korpikoski I think you natrually always can shave of 20% from their pts totals in the NHL compared to the AHL, but not much more.

Its kind of the same with Weise, like he will never become a complete AHL player, and if he played in the ECHL he wouldn't be a dominant player either. But he could probably today step into the NHL and manage to drive the puck to the net and create chances once in a while. He isn't burying em in the AHL so he sure wouldn't in the NHL either -- but he would probably stand out once in a while atleast.

And from my point of view, thats the real diffrence between a Dale Weise and Carl Hagelin. Like Gordie Clarke could call Dale Weise to his office and say - "look at Antonine Vermette. This is his test results. He squats x lbs and runs the quickness tests in x seconds. If you can get to his level in thoose areas you could make the NHL as a 4th line checker". Because if he could just improve his speed and strength enough he could do in the NHL exactly the same things as he does now in the AHL. If Weise could do that in 2-3 years he would get his feets wet and every incentive to improve would be within grasp. He would gain a ton of confidence and also get the opertunity to play with and against great players. That always helps players develop. Look at a Kirk Maltby -- he took that route. There are many other examples.

But what could Gordie Clarke tell Carl Hagelin if he called him into his office? He is 5'10 and 170 lbs, so becomming a checker would always be tough. "Carl if you improve in every single area you could become a 2nd line player".

I wouldn't rule out Hagelin as a prospect, I haven't seen him in over a year. Hagelin will become a good hockeyplayer -- no doubt. He is not like a Zabrosky or Skokan who just don't have the gods. Hagelin can skate really well. He can handle the puck at high speed. Stuff like that. But when I saw him the last time I had a very hard time figuring out where he could fit in on a NHL team. He isn't "that" good at all in any area really.

Brodie Dupont is really strong on the puck. He is half smart and sees the ice et c. He is decent in the attacking zone.

But when I saw him last season it was very obvious that he needed allot of work. He was very very raw. But thats not all that negative, allot can happend over a summer at that age. Though when I've seen him this season he have moved allong -- but he haven't taken any giant steps at all really. Not like a Dubinsky did at the same age for example. Not even like a Greg Moore.

I would say that Dupont is miles away, really miles away. But the fact that he is so raw speaks to his advantage -- like the more raw and flawed you are, the easier it is to take thoose first big steps. With a Dupont allot can happend in a short period of time. But the fact that all that much didn't happend this summer defintly isn't promising. Sometimes you need a season in the pro's to really grasp what needs to be done. But while Dupont have improved some -- he is still living on his strengths in the AHL basically, and many of his pts comes from his enviorment. Like in the summer he got to a level where he could keep up with the play in the AHL, which let him play to his strengths. His strengths in the NHL wouldn't achive much as it is, and the step he would have to take overall to be able to stay with the flow in the NHL is very big.

If someone gave me 1000 to 1 (or is it the other way around? You get what I mean ) that Dupont would make the NHL I am not sure I would spare a buck...
As usual--very insightful commenting Ola. A kind of thought on Dupont. Last year 22 points in 66 games--this year he's almost doubled that total in 74 games. It seems though also he's played more on the top lines this year but it does seem though he might not be ready for another couple years he is conitinuing to make progress. Shots on goal or even shooting % can also be an indicator on progress being made. A player like Byers might not get a lot of shots but his shooting % is rather high. I don't think he has a laser of a shot so it tells me he gets to the net. An example of how shots can be an indicator--someone like Dawes would put up 250-300 shots a year in Hartford but would struggled getting shots at the NHL level. Still forwards at the AHL level if you're looking at them being more than goons have got to show they can get opportunities at that level and with experience increase those opportunities.

eco's bones is offline