Round 2, Vote 2 (2009 update)
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08-03-2009, 11:24 PM
Join Date: Mar 2008
Originally Posted by
My Top 7
The consensus best forward in hockey history prior to Maurice Richard. Huge impact on the game.
He has a regular season peak almost as good as Hasek's if you adjust his stats for the era (late 80s). And his playoffs... blow away every other goaltender in history. And it's not just the 3 Smythes. When he won his first 2 Cups, he was the best player on his team by a good margin. When he won his second 2 Cups, he was a Top 2 player on his team by a good margin over #3. Is there another goaltender in history who won 4 Cups while being a Top 2 player on his team in the playoffs each time? I don't even think any of the guys on dynasty teams can come close. Patrick is in the conversation for best playoff performer of all time, regardless of position.
Patrick's historical significance is often underrated around here. More than any other one man, he is responsible for the dead puck era. He brought about the modern age of goaltending in at least three ways - 1) he made the position glamorous, inspiring a generation of great athletes to actually want to become goalies; 2) he popularized the butterfly - a huge reason scoring is down and will stay down; 3) he was a pioneer with regards to "creative use of equipment."
Probably my most controversial pick. I think people get hung up in the "lack of competition" from other dmen and forget that in the most competive era with the deepest talent pool in hockey history, Lidstrom has been the best overall hockey player regardless of position since Mario Lemieux. I'll make a more detailed case for him later.
The best of the Original 6 by a good margin (I was convinced by last year's discussion). I may very well end up flipping him and Lidstrom. I have a few concerns about how he fell off the face of the earth for a few years with the Rangers, but then he came back strong late in his career. His stats might be very slightly inflated due to playing on the best team of all time.
He suffers from a lack of longevity, but in his peak, he was the consensus best player in the league for 5-6 years. He was the offensive engine of the 70s Canadiens dynasty and was absolutely dominant in the playoffs. The best playoff producer among forwards who are left.
Very similar to Lafleur in that he has an amazing peak (at about the same time) but fell off relatively quickly (though not as fast as Lafleur). Still, he has to be behind Lafleur, as nobody would have taken Dennis over Guy at their peaks.
More negatives than anyone on this list but Jagr, but his numbers are just too good to drop any lower.
The musy middle (Where I'm most open to arguments)
- fantastic at both dman and forward
- more longevity, less peak than some others on the list.
- set scoring records before Gretzky, and great internationally. His playoff record is mixed, however.
- more negatives than anyone on this list, but the talent is undeniable.
Shouldn't make the list yet:
-short peak and not as good offensively as a lot of the guys here. And while he was elite defensively in the NHL, his scoring dropped significantly in the playoffs. Oh, and frankly it feels wrong to me to rank him below Kharlamov considering what he had to resort to in order to defend against him.
- Possibly the best goaltending peak over, but it's hard to ignore the fact that he did almost nothing after being removed from the Detroit dynasty. He's in the 2nd tier of goalies with Brodeur and Hall and deserves to be in the 21-30 range.
- I'm going to go into this in more detail later, but I think it's telling that his scoring plummeted when he no longer played with Howe. He was a star before Howe got there, but without Howe, I don't think he would be considered a Top 20 player. I have him in the mid 30s with Yzerman.[/B]
- Like Sawchuk, he's a tier below the Big 3 goaltenders. Worst playoff performer of the Big 6 goalies knocks him below Sawchuk and Brodeur in my book.
It really pains me to have to choose between Esposito and Jagr for the 10th spot over playoff warriors Messier and Bossy.
Stan Mikita doesnt have the great peak? He won more art ross trophies than Lafluer, while competing against better comp. Was an elite player for 5-6 years longer than Lalfleur.
I'm sorry when was Guy Lafluer the consensus best for 5-6 years? In 1975 Bobby Orr was easily #1. In 1976 Bobby Clarke won the hart trophy in a landslide. In 1979 Bryan Trottier was the best player and in 1980 it was between Gretzky and Dionne.
Guy Lafluer was the best forward in 1977 and 1978, that's about it. He's got to be the most overrated 'elite' player of all times.
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