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08-04-2009, 12:54 AM
  #34
Canadiens1958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Last I'll say about Messier since he's not up for voting and I don't want to annoy FF. But he won two Hart trophies against tough competition and was second once to healthy Mario Lemieux. He was also quite a bit better offensively than H Richard in the playoffs.


This is about Lindsay, and it just bothers me that we might have 4 of the top 20 players from the Detroit dynasty. 1/5 of the top 20 players of all time played for Detroit in the 50s? I'm less comfortable about that than the even higher representation of the 50s Canadiens at the top of the list, because:

1) the 50s Canadiens dominated their opponents in a way never seen before or since. 5 straight Cups without needing a game 7. The early 50s Wings were more of a "normal" dynasty in terms of on-ice results, and yet they are going to get 4 of the top 20 players of all time on the list?

2) In general, the Detroit stars did not perform as well outside the dynasty as they did during the dynasty years. Red Kelly is the exception I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), which is why I am likely to vote him in this round.

Honestly, what does Lindsay have over someone like Yzerman? Even more leadership and tough (dirty?) play? Leadership and tough play weren't enough to get Messier on the list. Lindsay had his one really good season without Howe, but Yzerman had one really freakishly good season too.



Well, I have him ahead of Potvin and Kelly, so he has to go Top 15.




Yeah, I understand why Clarke is ahead of Kharlamov. But Clarke is portrayed as some kind of unstoppable defensive machine, and yet he was completely owned by Kharlamov until the incident. It's not the only reason I don't have him in my top 20 (the main would be more due to his lack of offense, especially in the playoffs, compared to other guys who are up), but it is noteworthy.
You raise some interesting points.

There are flaws in the debating and voting structure. For instance the issue of defensive abilities of centers is precluded from head to head debate by the structure of the discussion and voting. Bobby Clarke, Dave Keon, Stan Mikita, Henri Richard, Bryan Trottier cannot be compared head to head.

Your Lindsay point is valid because he is placed on an island. Not possible to compare him against LWs like Dickie Moore or Johnny Bucyk. Different styles but all filled the important role of a #1 LW.

Likewise a Messier / Phil Esposito comparison would have merit within the context of this discussion.

Fail to see your Clarke / Kharlamov analogy. Center is not defensively responsible for wingers. That Clarke did what others were seemingly not willing to do reflects on his character or lack off, whichever view you take.

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