Round 2, Vote 2 (2009 update)
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08-04-2009, 08:20 AM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Originally Posted by
My list, I hate this part, the top 20 should be all generational talents, but, sadly, isn't yet. Go Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin!
1. Dominic Hasek: Inimitable generational talent. IMO, the definitive player of the dead puck era. Dominated games at a level no one else left could. Injuries at critical points of his career do hamper him, but not much at this point IMO.
2. Patrick Roy: Best big game player on the board, possibly ever. One stat alone explains my position. 151 playoff wins, second place is 98 wins. Having more than 50% more wins then second place is unreal statistical dominance.
3/4. Howie Morenz or Stan Mikita: A trademark peak vs longevity battle. At his best, Morenz was the NHL's 1st superstar and was irreplaceable in growing the sport in America. But, his dominance was inconsistent and ended young. Mikita on the other hand, was a peer of Hull, Howe and Beliveau for a decade. But, not able to prove himself better than them. But, they are all off the board now, so, he doesn't have to be better. Was a top notch player for probably twice as many years as Morenz, but, never changed the game. I'm torn.
5. Jacques Plante: Revolutionary goalie. Winner. Not a dominant force. But, he changed the game and won. Do you need more?
6. Niklas Lidstrom: The only player in NHL history who can invisibly dominate games. The second most efficient player ever. (After Gretzky) Critiquing his career on one bad play is as absurd as the Vote for Rory attack ads, and deserves no further comment.
7. Denis Potvin: The line between Potvin and Lidstrom is razor thin and much the same as Morenz vs Mikita. Potvin was better, Lidstrom did it longer. But, I've made up my mind here.
8. Red Kelly: The first non-generational talent IMO. But, his versatility excuses that. The more research I do, the more I can't explain Kelly over Cyclone Taylor, but, that's an argument for another day. His complete lack of flaws makes me comfortable listing him here.
9. Phil Esposito: He produced. Yes, there are questions about how much Orr helped. But his Hart votes over Orr help. I want to have him lower. But, he won some cups, had some great runs. And produced at an all-time great level.
10. Glenn Hall: His playoff resume is underrated. He failed to improve more than he faltered. And seeing as he is the 1st or 2nd best regular season goalie (Hasek is the disputer.) I fail to see that as a major problem.
11. Jaromir Jagr: This is where Hart shares begin to influence my research and voting. He's 4th, ahead of Hull, Beliveau and Richard. Now, it isn't a perfect measure, but, it says a lot. As does 5 scoring titles. 5 players have done that, 3 are top 4 all-time, there's only so much you can punish a player for being a moody ***** when he backs it up like that.
12. Terry Sawchuk: Now we really start to get into how a player hurts his team through their actions. If he had never touched a bottle, we may well be talking about whether or not he's better than Mario. But, he did touch the bottle. Often. He hurt himself. He hurt his team. He chose to undercut one of the greatest careers ever. But. He was still able to be phenomenal early in his career and he was able to remain good for an amazing length of time.
13. Bobby Clarke: It's worth noting that he peaked after '72 and definitely struggled more against very quick players. But. He was a leader, a warrior, a shutdown artist and a great playmaker. He's also the worst goal scoring forward in the top 50, possibly even the top 100.
14. Ted Lindsay: Once again I'll bring up Hart shares. A forward. his whole peak in the frame of the analysis. Doesn't even appear in the top 50. His Hart votes: 4th, 6th and 10th. And we're calling him a top 20 player of all time? I'm sorry. I've got a problem with that.
15. Guy Lafleur: How is Jagr punished for his mood swings and Lafleur not punished for his party lifestyle? In three years: 232gp 162g 224a 386pts. Gets drunk, speeds, crashes his car. The next three years: 185gp 81g 149a 230pts. That is how personality hurts a team. His goal scoring was literally halved by the choices he as an individual made. If we are to punish players for how they acted as a human being and how those actions hurt their teams ability to succeed. We start by punishing Guy Lafleur. He should be below Bill Cook.
Bowie and McGee is a different era. That shattered non-pro league era meant a lot of weak teams for stars to rip apart. Where as Taylor, Lalonde and Malone played in the split league era where there was 7-10 major pro teams in the world, so, talent was more concentrated.
His contributions to the game are endless:
1. Introduced skating backwards
2. First puck rushing defenceman
3. Legitimized pro hockey in Western Canada.
4. First hockey player to utilize his hockey talent to set himself up financially for life. (In his first major pro contract, it stipulated in the contract that Ottawa provided him with a lifetime position in the Canadian government, he worked for Immegrations Canada until he was 66 years old. He then became disputably the highest paid athlete in the world when he signed with the Renfrew Millionaires.
And most importantly of all:
5. The first playmaker. He was the first player to really utilize passing to create offence. Because passing rules made passing in hockey more or less like passing in rugby, most star players would explore all options before passing the puck. Taylor was the first player to make setting up a teammate one of his major scoring options. As evidenced by having more than 80% more assists per game then any other players once the PCHA started recording assists.
The Lidstrom claim is disputed with visible +/- comparisons, previous post.
Roy / Hasek. Roy's 151 playoff wins somehow gets trumped by Hasek's 65, Yet Roy had a better playoff winning % by app. 5%.
Cyclone Taylor. Playmaker? Care to step up with evidence?
1920-21 season does not support your claim.Career wise? Do you appreciate how many unrecorded assists from the pre 1920-21 era have to be added to Cyclone Taylor's record to reach your alleged 80%?
Cyclone Taylor was a forward originally who like Bobby Orr 50 years later was moved back to defense because he was to fast for his teammates and playing him on defense/rover created difficulties for the opposition. This was done with others from the era as well, Moose Johnson,etc.
No Patricks, no PCHA.
Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-04-2009 at
. Reason: wording
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