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11-27-2009, 03:25 PM
Leafs Forever
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No one is arguing with the greatness of Cyclone Taylor. I'm disagreeing with how much of a gap you have between Taylor (your first line center) and Frederickson and Dunderdale (my second & third line centers).

Best Five Finishes in Goals PCHA

Cyclone Taylor - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2
Tommy Dunderdale - 1, 1, 1, 3, 6
Frank Frederickson - 1, 3, 4, 4 (only played 4 years)

Taylor and Dunderdale each led the PCHA in goals 3 times. That would be as close as one could get.
an extra 2-2 is quite a bit better than the 3-6. And I can't help but be curious as to how much Taylor was ahead of the next guy in said years. Not as close as it could get. The reason Taylor didn't have more of a goalscoring record was his time as a defenceman most likely.

Another thing to consider here: as this was the split-league era, differences in scorings are within a league wider than they appear. For example, if you were first in goal-scoring in your league, you were likely top-2 in the world at the year. If you were second, you were only assured top-4. Or if you were, say, 3rd, you were likely top-6, wheras if you were 6th, you were likely top-12 only. The 6th being only 3 spots behind 3rd would suggest things being closer than they really were.

As for Fredrickson's record; as I noted in the matchup earlier, I question his ability to score goals on the line he is playing, flanking two pretty much pure goalscorers.

Best Five Finishes in Assists PCHA

Cyclone Taylor - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Tommy Dunderdale - 3, 4, 5, 6, 6
Frank Frederickson - 1, 2, 3, 3 (only played 4 years)

Clearly Taylor is second to none in this category.
Taylor was a great goalscorer when given the opportunity, and amongst these three he is second to none in goalscoring as well, but yes, playmaking was more his forte.

Best Five Finishes in Points PCHA

Cyclone Taylor - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Tommy Dunderdale - 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Frank Frederickson - 1, 2, 2, 3

Taylor 5 scoring titles, Dunderdale 2 scoring titles, Frederickson 1 scoring title.
Three more scoring titles, or top-2's, vs extra 2 top-6 and top-10 overall finishes..seems pretty wide to me. Your earlier post would have people believe these guys equal. This just illustrates the flaw of only examining top-5's when looking at a player's offense.; especially in the split-league days.

Head to Head, Taylor vs. Dunderdale, PCHA

1912-1913 - Dunderdale 23 points Taylor 18 points
1913-1914 - Taylor 39 points Dunderdale 28 points
1914-1915 - Taylor 45 points Dunderdale 27 points
1915-1916 - Taylor 35 points Dunderdale 17 points
1916-1917 - Taylor 29 points Dunderdale 26 points
1917-1918 - Taylor 43 points Dunderdale 20 points
1918-1919 - Taylor 36 points Dunderdale 9 points
1919-1920 - Dunderdale 33 points Taylor 19 points

*Although Taylor played in the PCHA in 1921 and 1922 they were not full schedules so I left them out.
To summarize each season:

-Dunderdale beat Taylor by slim 5. points.
-Taylor beats Dunderdale by 11.
- Taylor beats Dunderdale by 18.
- Taylor beats Dundedale by 18; in this year, Taylor more than doubled Dunderdale's production.
- Taylor beats Dunderdale by slim 3 points.
- Taylor beats Dunderdale by 23 points; Taylor more than doubled Dunderdale's production.
- Taylor beats Dunderdale by 27 points; in this year, Taylor quadrupuled Dunderdale's production.
- Dunderdale beats Taylor by 14 points.

Dunderdale could never beat Taylor in Taylor's prime. The margins between the two are pretty large by this (as they should be- Taylor is the all-time PHA points leader with almost half the games played as the #2 scorer, if I am not mistaken.) Again, just goes to show the flaw at the way you were only looking at top 5's earlier.

If we're talking late 60's/early 70's I would peg the talent distribution as ...

NHL 75%, Russia 20%, rest of the world 5%
Don't think Russia has quite that kind of talent yet.

Anatoli Firsov

-Soviet MVP: 1968, 1969, and 1971
-Soviet scoring champion: 1966
-Soviet goal-scoring leader: 1966
-IIHF World Championships scoring leader: 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971
-IIHF World Championships goal-scoring leader: 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971
-IIHF World Championships best forward: 1967, 1968, 1971

There's no doubt that missing Firsov was a big blow to the Russians. On the level of a missing Orr, of course not, but closer to the Canadians missing Bobby Hull.
I'm not questioning Firsov's ability (I've had him before) nor how much the Russians missed him- I am questioning whether his value is really worth that of Orr and/or Hull to the Canadians. I think not; we are talking about the best defenceman of all-time and perhaps the best goalscorer of all-time here.

Last edited by Leafs Forever: 11-27-2009 at 03:44 PM.
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