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12-01-2009, 05:23 PM
God Bless Canada
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I would say taking top-5 to top-25 is more than a little far.

Fair enough; and I always supported the higher competition and thus if it's closer in those base scoring finishes but the older guy is still ahead a guy in the expansion and beyond may make go ahead. But I was trying to just argue the value of those Mortson finishes- and they do have value. And in an arguement where we are talking a guy who made top-10 6 times vs two guys who made it twice each, I don't think the adjustment makes up the difference (carlyle's two top-10's were both better than anything Mortson came with, but still). How many guys were there outside the league that were really better offensively than Mortson?

To extend to top-15's;

Desjardins-15th, 12th, 12th

Carlyle- 14th, 15th, 11th

Of course, I think it's only fair to do the same for Mortson, which although aren't the same value show that Mortson did more outside his top 10's and that even the addition of the top 15's for Desjardins and Carlyle don't make them better than Mortson:

Mortson- 13th, 15th


Morton- 5, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10, 13, 15

Desjardins- 4, 8, 12, 12, 15

Carlyle- 1, 4, 11, 14, 15

I get that Desjardins and Carlyle get good era adjustments- but are those really enough to make htem better offensively than Mortson's longevity? I don't really think so.

But why do they deserve to be drafted? What makes them any good in the playoffs then? I don't think the russian leagues ever had playoffs, and if there more pressured accomplishments in the international tournaments in best on best won't translate to the best of seven format, how do we know if we'll perform?

My point isn't necessary clutchness; it's that Selanne can perform with increased pressure, and with two excellent playoff performers in Taylor and Blake as his linemates, he will perform well in this series.

It's one thing to say the finishes are worse due to era's (which is true); but the league leaders in those years defense years weren't even scoring 54 points. And again, is the era advantage (which I never though Desjardins and Carlyle didn't get- I was just more-so really angered at your comparing of top-5 to top-25) really make up the gap?

And you're too anti-stats "I won't show any quotes or real proof, but my guys are better and can do this".

You've given me plenty of "I saw, therefore he is". I could say I am really 80 years old and saw Mortson play and saw all the players from the time and Mortson was by far the best defensively. How would you know I was lieing? Because there isn't any evidence to really back up Mortson played at that defensive level (although he was good defensively).

As jarek said, if he was really good, let's see evidence.

You also forget he didn't spend all his years in Winnipeg. He spent nearly half his career playing for the Penguins and Leafs too.

As for the notion that Winnipeg could have been to the cup final a couple times, it is speculation, a big "what-if", and is speculation and assumption. Don't tend to give value to that.

As for the notion he was the best player on those Winnipeg teams? Dale Hawerchuk says "hi".
When did I say Randy Carlyle was the Jets best player? I said he was the guy (the defenceman) they used against the opposition's best. Even in the 1992 playoffs, when he was really slowed by the back injury, he was the guy they wanted out there against Bure. That doesn't mean he's their best player. Just their best defenceman. Their best all-round defenceman.

This tendancy of guys deliberately misquoting others really has to stop. It's disrespectful. Is that the best you've got? That tells me you know you shouldn't beat us, and the only way you will is if guys buy into your statistical smoke. Mortson had 13th and 15th place finishes? How many points did he get that year? 15? And how many defencemen played more than two-thirds of the games? 30? 35?

I'm a big Mortson fan. Tremendous player. But you're not helping his cause for those who aren't as familiar with him.

As I said before, top five in scoring for defencemen in the Original 6 is fine. But when you get into the top 10, it's a completely different story. I know some of you guys really like your relativity, but it only goes so far (in many cases, not very far), and in some cases, like the one you're arguing here, it's an abysmal failure.

Of course Hawerchuk was the Jets best player. (I did need another player evaluation blunder from dreakmur, though). Hawerchuk was one of the best players in the league from the moment he arrived in Winnipeg to the moment he left Winnipeg. An incredible player who did great things even though he didn't have a winger at his level.

And you're right, Carlyle did play much of his career outside of Winnipeg. He played in Pittsburgh. Where he won a Norris Trophy. Pittsburgh was dreadful while Carlyle was there. Never has there been a worse team to have a Norris winner. (LA in 1997-98 might be close, though).

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