Red Fisher Conference Final: (1) Tidewater Sharks vs. (2) New Jersey Swamp Devils
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12-09-2009, 08:02 PM
Join Date: Aug 2006
First Defense Pair = Advantage NJ.
Tidewater has one of my favorite top pairs of the draft. I really think Chelios and Pronovost complement each other very well. But neither is as good as his counterpart on NJ.
Second Defense Pair = Slight advantage NJ overall. (Offensive edge to NJ, Defensive edge to Tidewater).
---Art Ross/Herb Gardiner is a tough call. Art Ross gets the offensive edge, Herb Gardiner gets the defensive edge.
Gardiner's Hart year gives him the better peak, but his peak is so short, since he got started so late. Only 3 years in the NHL. I think they are pretty close overall.
Here's a post I found from a past ATD on Ross's offense:
Originally Posted by
Here, I did some quick Art Ross research while siting in my car in my laptop, leeching off someone's wireless network while waiting for my dog to get groomed.
I think if you're only going as deep as 5th, it's only fair that with Ross we concern ourselves with the times he was in the top-3 in his league among defensemen, since it was essentially a half league. I will do my best to account for other star players' stints at defense and forward where possible. I will also only include the 1907 season and onwards, because that was when he began playing in a "top" league.
1907 - Ross was in a 3-way tie for 2nd behind Hugh Ross, with Si Griffis and Paddy Chambers. Joe Hall had many more points but I know Hall was a forward at this time.
1908 - It appears Ross was in a tie for 2nd, again, with Frank Patrick. Moose Johnson topped them by one goal. Was Johnson a forward at the time? I forget. Hall topped them but he was still a forward.
1911 - Ross' 6 points were actually tied for the most in the NHA by a defenseman that season, and he did it in fewer games. Taylor outscored him but as a rover - not sure if you count that.
1912 - Ross topped the NHA. Hall and Cleghorn were 2nd and 3rd. This was Ross' peak.
1913 - Ross again topped the NHA, with Cleghorn, McNamara, Cameron and Hall within 4 points of him.
1916 - Ross finished 2nd, a point behind McNamara and three ahead of Foghorn.
I think it's fair to say that if you're top-3 in the NHA at this time, you're top 5 in all of hockey. If I was to speculate what this translates out to in a consolidated league, I'd say:
1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Gonchar territory, or a little better.
Not campaigning for anyone here, I just like to research and post what I find
Without an in depth analysis, I think it's fair to say that's better than Gardiner, who had 6 goals and 12 points in his Hart winning year, and then 7 points combined in his other 2 years in the NHL. Yes, he did have some good numbers in the WCHL early in his career, for what we want to make of that.
As for defense, Ross "brought savvy to the defensive zone," but Gardiner "was a rock on the defense corps of every team he played on," and is well known for his play in his own zone. So Gardiner has the advantage. But the advantage is lessened by the fact that he only had the 3 years in the NHL.
---Harper = Goldham defensively. Goldham > Harper at puck moving, so Goldham is a bit better overall.
Terry Harper and Bob Goldham were both among the best defensive defensemen of their eras, and either would probably be in the HOF if he brought more offense. Both were key complimentary players on dynasties. I'll say they are even defensively. But Goldham is better at moving the puck, and this is why I think my 2nd pair has the slight edge overall. To illustrate, Goldham was 7th in assists by defensemen over the course of his career (41-55). Harper, on the other hand, is one of the biggest black holes on offense in the entire ATD (see
for a "junk stat" that sort of illustrates this).
Third Defense Pair = Close. Offensive Advantage for Tidewater. Defensive advantage for NJ.
---Kuzkin vs. Drinkwater is very close. Both are solid 2way guys from completely different leagues. Drinkwater is a secondary star from the 1890s (probably the 2nd best dman in the league at the time after Grant). Kuzkin is a secondary star from the USSR in the 60s/early 70s - and is probably a Top 2-3 defenseman of the time, after Vasiliev. I think Kuzkin is better because I think he faced better competition, but it's a close call. Kuzkin is more of a standard puck mover, whereas Drinkwater is more of a puck rusher (as was the style of play in his era).
---Moose Goheen and George McNamara are both pre-consolidation HOFers. Goheen has great stats, but he also has the "early American who never played in the NHL" problem. It's hard to compare. But what we do know is Goheen was better offensively, and McNamara was better defensively and a better hitter. This is probably the biggest difference between the pairs.
---I wonder who Tidewater's pair of early puck rushers will have their game translate into the ATD. I'd rather have a more stay at home guy with an early puck rusher. Though admittedly, Drinkwater is very solid in his own end, and in this fantasy world, I suppose that one or both would adapt.
Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-09-2009 at
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