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03-15-2010, 08:33 PM
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We're going to disagree on goaltending, and we're going to disagree on Holmgren's management job throughout his tenure with the Flyers. That's just how it is.
Obviously, but do you not think Holmgren's cap management is a reason we can't afford a top flight goalie?

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The Flyers are a well managed team that can move futures for immediate talent because they have done so well in the draft and through trades in the last couple of years. People complain about Holmgren's cap management, but if he wasn't here, we'd probably be a bottom feeder not worrying about the cap for a number of years. The Flyers are set-up with a brilliant core for the next 5-7 years plus. We have to build around that and move pieces in and out, but we're going to be good for a pretty decent stretch thanks to Holmgren.

A Stanley Cup is incredibly hard to obtain. You need a perfect set of circumstances with the right team at the right time. The most you can realistically ask from a GM is to put you in a position where you have the opportunity to win a Cup year in and year out. Asking for anything more is absolutely reckless and unrealistic. If Flyers fans ran every team in the league, there would be 27 GMs switching teams every three seasons or so.
We'll agree to disagree on Holmgren's management. I also don't think we'd just be a bottom feeder collecting high picks without Holmgren. You don't think any GM couldn't have done what he did or did it better? He made some shrewd moves, but ultimately it doesn't take a genius to throw a ton of cash at Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen.

Of course it's not easy to win a Cup, but I expect to be more than a 5-6 seed that has "a chance." This team should be one of the top team in the league that is a legit threat for the Cup. So far this team has finished 5th, 6th, and is on track for another 5th or 6th seed in the last three years. It's not impressive to be a team that just makes the playoffs. To me this season is a huge fail after acquiring Pronger if they don't make a serious run. The regular season already looks like a dud considering they are on pace for fewer points than last year.

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yeah, I blame Stevens and injuries. It's a fact that those two factors effected the team whether you want to believe it or not.
Sure they were factors, but every team has injuries so they are not unique in that regard. In fact I feel the Flyers have been fairly lucky this year in regard to injury because it wasn't too long ago when the Flyers were constantly at the top in regards to man games lost to injury. The Emery injury has been particular unfortunate, but that hasn't hurt us in the win-loss column because they've been fortunate with Leighton thus far. I felt Stevens was a problem, but lately we've seen the effort issue crop up once again and they've been a .500 team since the Olympic break which might point to the fact that the team isn't really as good as we all thought they'd be.

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Unfortunately, goaltending is not a chronic weakness when you're as good as pretty much everyone else in the NHL. Every year we have dime-a-dozen goaltending. That's neither an advantage or a disadvantage. This year, because of Emery's injury, we're stuck with someone that is probably less than dime-a-dozen. Regardless of how good we make him look, that's still a fact. This is the first year in a while I consider goaltending an actual weakness.
Every year when the playoffs role around the hockey world talks about how the Flyers biggest weakness is goaltending. How can you say it hasn't been an actual weakness?

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I also want to take this opportunity to point out a phrase you used: "that guy." A thing that I find interesting with the NHL is that "that guy" is normally who the team feels comfortable with. Though I feel that goaltending is dime-a-dozen, there are differences in ability between those goaltenders however slight. Still, even if Halak was a little better, the Penguins would not trade Fleury for Halak just because of that fact. There is a certain comfort level organizations find with goalies. The players on the ice play better with goaltenders that they feel comfortable with. The Flyers have never found the right goalie at the right price who they (or the team) was absolutely comfortable with. Leighton seems to be showing signs of chemistry with the team, but unfortunately he is not necessarily a talented goalie we should be betting our future on. It's hard to find goalies that meet the right qualifications to become a starter for 4-5 years with an organization through the ups and downs. Usually only the elites are good enough to pull that off.
I don't think it's just the elites considering you think only 4-5 goalies in the league are elite. Calgary, Vancouver, San Jose, Pittsburgh, New Jersey, Buffalo, Minnesota, New York R, Florida, and Carolina all have found goalies that is that guy for them. The Islanders had that guy as well until DiPietro got injured. Dallas had their guy in Turco and Anaheim had that guy in Giguere until they both got old. You might consider Thomas that guy for Boston, but they also have Rask to potentially be that guy for them. The Canadiens have both Price and Halak and one is likely to be that guy for them. The Kings have Quick who early on looks to be that guy and Bernier right behind him.
It's not real easy to find a guy who can be the #1 for half a decade, but the Flyers have also been unusually bad at finding a quality goalie.

Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I agree. That's the best chance the Flyers have at getting an elite goalie, but the odds of that goalie becoming elite are at best 1/50. I don't consider it a solid investment to trade what could possibly become an elite forward for someone who will likely end up among those other 49 out of 50 goaltenders.
How do you come up with those odds? I don't agree the odds are that low in regards to someone like Price who has a great pedigree and has already done more than your average 22 year old goalie. His career thus far is just as good or better than the current elite goalies were at that age. I think there is a good chance he reaches that level as long as he stays healthy.

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