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03-06-2005, 09:43 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
As has been made clear several times in this thread, while WBS defense doesn't give up a huge voume of shots, when their defense does let one by it tends to be a pretty chance. Fleury made some very nice saves against Springfield and definitely earned his shutout.

Ok sure, i've heard jacob talk about this before and i can take that

I agree. As you've seen me post in other threads about Fleury, his stats are deceiving. How about we look at his winning percentage instead of his GAA? That stat gives us a clearer picture of how he's played.

Winning percentage is a team stat

As someone who hasn't seen Fleury play at all this year, you seem to know an awful lot of (wrong) information about his style. Brodeur plays much more of a standup/reflex game, whereas Fleury is much more of a pure butterfly goaltender (sorry if you don't think his is as "pretty" as your boy Caron). And I don't think any Pens fan will make the argument that he play a Brodeur type game by frustrating the opposing team's forecheck with his puckhandling. Although greatly improved, Maffy's puckhandling will likely never be on par with the Brodeur's and Turco's of the NHL.
As mentioned earlier, when WBS gives up a scoring chance, it tends to be a doozy. That's the main reason for his mediocre (albeit improving) statistics.
Next, if you want to argue about Sabourin's stats, don't forget that the guy hasn't played half as much as MAF and that teams just tend to play better in front of their backup goalie.

I know how fleury plays, he plays butterfly with some stand up, my argument was that fleury DOES NOT play like brodeur, so the stat of save percentage is therefore less accurate and applicable.

As for sabourin, i'm not like arnie in that manner. I've seen sabourin play twice this year and althogh i LOVE his butterfly stance(not caron pretty) he is not nearly as talented as fleury. He has legitamte NHL potential, but he is no way close to fleury in development or talent.

Wait, wait, I thought you didn't like stats? I don't either, but I'm game. For starters, Lehtonen and Miller are both older and more developed. Lehtonen's save percentage (potentially the most misleading stat in hockey) is higher because he most likely faces a higher volume of shots nightly. While Fleury faces fewer shots, he's also exposed to roughly the same number of good scoring chances.

I don't like stats, but they are good to a certain degree. My main point was just more of an inquiry. As for lehts not facing as many quality scoring chances as fleury? I'm sorry but thats ludicrous. Thats like saying brodeur doesn't face as many shots as luongo but the amount of decent quality scoring chances are the same. Fleury plays on a great team, albiet attidue problems and lazy, so he will definently face less hard shots than lehtonen. I'm not saying fleury doesn't face any hard shots, i've seen the WBS defense in action and they do give up some chances here and there. But i've seen the amazingly horrid chicago defense in action these past two seasons and they not only give up a high volume of shots but a LOAD OF GREAT chances that outweigh what fleury faces. Miller, i'm not quite sure, but miller has been the most valuable player in the league outside of lehtonen to me.

Bottom line is lehtonen faces a higher volume of shots and definently higher amount of harder shots. Toivenen is a similar story. Yet they manage to have a higher save percentage. When teams face chicago its not like they're just throwing cookie shots at them, they are able to penetrate their weak defense and throw some hella quality shots on net.

You state that you've seen him before. How much and did you watch him tonite or against Springfield? He hardly looked like a prospect on the decline during those games. Ask R.J. Umberger about how good Fleury is.

Two games? I'm sure fleury is getting better late in the season, which is a good indicator. I'd be interested to see how they do in the playoffs. Also keep in mind wilkesbarre has improved a load as a TEAM as of late. I saw fleury a lot in the WJC's and in pittsburgh. I saw him rob boston of a victory 3-2 in overtime and koltsov be a biatch to thornton in that game and draw a game winning penalty. I saw him get beaten 4 times by markus naslund in a 4-3 overtime win for the canucks and i've seen him get lit up by the rangers and outplayed by luongo in 2 games vs. the panthers, among other games. I use to have his NHL debut game on my computer, but that computer went insane so i lost it. That game is a quality indictaor of how much talent the kid has, which i won't dispute. It was the most impressive debut of a goalie i've seen other than luongo's debut against boston. More impressive than lehtonen's NHL debut, more impressive than niitymaki's as well. And keep in mind both were OUTSTANDING in their NHL stays, albeit lesser stays than fleury and on beter teams.

One quick thing here... Earlier, you also state that Lehtonen outperformed Fleury at the WJC's... Would that be in 2003 when Fleury was the reason Canada won silver and won best goalie (over Lehtonen)?
You've been less biased against Fleury than usual in this thread, I'll give you that. But you're still not doing a very good job of staying impartial. Not to mention that your reason for not liking Fleury is pretty much downright ridiculous. I like Caron too, but I'll take Fleury in a heartbeat.

Ya i have a dumb reason for liking fleury...meh, we all have stupid little things that we are adament about. I'd take fleury ahead of caron, but i still like caron more, although i'm awful worried about how he'll rebound this upcoming season after this past dreadful year... As for my opinion on lehtonen out playing fleury? I feel lehotnen was better than fleury. Awards can be good and they can be bad remeber how ovechkin just recently won the best forward award over bergeron who was interestingly enough the MVP, personally i feel that either fleury or lehtonen getting it was just. When the two ment, while lehtonen took the loss, its not like he played poorly, he really stood on his head in that game at times. The goals, from my memory, were not his fault. But fleury was outstanding during that tourney. I give lehts the nod overall, due to the fact that in lehtonen's two years as starter in the WJC he was dominant both times. Fleury was great both times, but not up to lehtonen's level, which is why i say lehtonen outperformed fleury.

and there's my reply

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