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10-02-2003, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sluggo
That playoff series was the first time Kaberle played in front of a goalie who wasn't stopping most of the first shots coming at him, thus it was the first time his weakness was exposed and his stats reflected it. HE didn't play different during that run, the circumstances he played in changed and they no longer hide his weakness. That series didn't determine his career, it just made his weakness blantly clear. And during the season Belfour was amazing at stopping the first shots guys took at him, hding Kaberles weakness.
Actually it wasn't the first time he played in front of a struggling goalie, there was a long stretch the year before in which Cujo struggled (earning him the name Joe-Sieve in the media), then Cujo got injured and he had to play in front of Cory Schwab who did an admirable job but face it, he's no #1, not to mention many games in front of the back up.
Stopping the first shot is what a goalie is paid to do, you can't expect many Salo olympic type goals from any goaltender. What Kaberle does do though, is block many shots on top of the ones you're mentioning (stats can be provided if you wish, I'd posted them before) and ensure that the shots are from the outside. No one has ever claimed Kaberle to be a physical force, but defensively aware, as much as you'd hate to admit it, clearing the zone is a defensive aspect of the game and not so much offensive.

Originally Posted by sluggo
It amazes me how people still don't understand this when I've explained it at least 4 times. Kaberles WEAKNESS was hidden by Belfours strength and vis-versa (same with Cujo). When you look at a Svehla or McCabe they don't have the same weakness that Kaberle does (however they aren't as good at moving the puck). So while they strength just helps Belfours they aren't as good as hiding his weakness, which leads to a lower +/- in the reg. season. However when Belfours strength goes (like int he playoffs) those defensemen who can cover the goalies weakness (unlike Kaberle) become more valuable and their stats go up, which is why Kaberle's stats were weak in the play-offs and strong during the season, and the reverse happened with most other defensemen (when compaired to Kaberle).
Okay first part made no sense to me, are you saying that a physical defenseman generally has a lower +/- because they're good defensively?
Kaberle's stats were weak in the playoffs as were many of the team players, they were out played, out hussled, and out coached. Using your logic Svelha's stats should have gone up in the playoffs (read what you said before denying please), wrong, Svelha -5. So if it's good defensively minded defensemen that only get the good numbers in front of a goalie playing average, then please explain why Lumme and Berg were 1 & 2. Does that make them better?

Originally Posted by sluggo
Which is why his skill set can make him valuable in SOME PP situations, however if the other team is playing very aggressive, driving to the net more etc.
Which is why he's generally paired up with a more physical punishing partner. In the penalty kill generally the forwards take care of the point men and line passes, the defensemen take care down low, normally in a passive box, with an aggressive crashing team, one d-man is assigned to keep the goalies vision clear and prevent tip ins or rebounds down low whilst the other is looked upon to clear the puck after a shot is made.

Originally Posted by sluggo
And to say that Quinn isn't loyal to a fault and players play in situations when they really shouldn't under him just shows a lack of knowledge about the Leafs and their coach.
No disagreement from me so the "lack of knowledge" can't be justified. Quinn does quite often place loyalty over smarts as demonstrated most often by Lumme's situation last year, not however in the case of Kaberle.

Originally Posted by sluggo
Hes in that mould right now. And Gonchar is NOT a #1 defenseman. A #1 defenseman needs to be defensivly responsible, not just an offensive point machine. The only people who consider Gonchair a #1 defense are people who either a) base it only on pts, or b) base on it things like video game ratings. Tverdovsky and Gonchar are the same type of player (as is Kaberle) and neither is a #1 guy.
Funny, most people tend to disagree with you there. I posted a poll yesterday asking if people would consider him a #1. See for yourself the results.
And the question wasn't tainted to sway people's opinion, see for yourself in the poll board under the same title as the question. Curiously the 3 people who voted no never did step up to explain why when asked. And these opinions don't just end at fans, critics and scouts also categorize Gonchar as a true #1. Weird thing is, if you ask Washington fans about Klee's +/- they attribute it to the fact he played with Gonchar yet by your reasoning it's the reverse.

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