CHALLENGE !! Step up Sluggo. Dar_vs._Sluggo
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10-02-2003, 01:10 PM
Join Date: Jul 2003
"You're already running around in circles with absolutely ZERO facts, links, or stats "
Oh yes, I don't have a poll of 30 people on a website (probably all washington and Gonchar fans) how could even think about talking about this without such a rock hard and unquestionable source of facts. And you've yet to even try to disprove the analysis of Kaberles reg. season and playoff stas because you can't - they clearly show when hes infront of a goalie who lets in the first shots his stats turnt o ****, why? His defensive play is lacking.
"Okay Einstein, shows your knowledge, how did Cujo's slow period (two seasons ago) coincide with Kaberle's first year?"
I thought you meant Cujos first year, which was his worse when you look at the stats. However wheneer Cujo goes into slumps its rebounds that kill him. Hes good enough positionaly to make that first save, but when hes off his game he flops around like a fish after, so he was still covering Kaberles weakness.
"Weird, previously you'd try to say that was one of his deficiencies that holds him back from being a #1 but when I gave you the stats you completely ignored them"
I never said Blocking shots held him back, I said allowing players to just skate through him and get good scoring chances help him back, and even when he does block a shot its normally after someone has taken a shot - he does nothing to stop them. His decision making away from the puck isnt' that good either. I havn't all the pre-season games, but in their game with the Sabres he tried to stand toe-to-toe with Pyatt infront of the net (which he can't do), a #1 defenseman would know when to stand up to someone and when to let someone else to do - in that situation he was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for a goal, not a #1 defenseman.
"Wanna make a poll on that one? If anything I think you're being outclassed in the intelligence department here."
How? I'd countered everyone one of your arguments while you've ignored at least one of mine. You don't have a leg to stand on.
"Maybe you're getting EA confused with CBC, TSN etc. Kaberle does stop good scoring chances"
See, getting pushed over while someone steps into the slot and takes a shot isn't taking away a scoring chance. The stats and analysis I gave you about this reg. season and playoff stats tell the story perfectly, and you've done nothing to show the analysis is wrong because you can't. When Kaberle plays infront of a goal whos weak on the first shot his stats go to **** because he can't take away good scoring chances.
"Make up your mind which side of the fence you're sitting on. You're trying to claim that Kaberle's + rating is a direct result of Belfour (and Cujo) constantly bailing him out but yet Kaberle's the reason for Svelha's -? Talk about picking your arguments"
See this is why your dumb. You asked why Svehals PLAYOFF +/- was low since he plays a style that takes away good scoring chances, but during the playoffs he was on the ice with Kaberle (ie - on the ice for the same goals Kaberle was), so his +/- was brought down by Kaberles weak defensive play. Geez, its like talking to a 5 year.
"Again, see the fence statement. First you criticize Quinn because Lumme shouldn't have been playing then you praise him for his playoff performance. Lumme at that point of his career wasn't even a shadow of Kaberle's defensive and offensive performance. To say otherwise would quite frankly make you look like a fool"
During the PLAYOFFS (which is when Lumme had a +4) I had no problem with being played, he and Berg were playing well agains teh flyers and did take away scoring chances and contained the puck. I never once said against the flyers that Lumme was weak and only played because of Quinns loyality.
"On a "normal" power play the idea isn't necessarily to get the goal tender out of position as much as it is to get the defensemen chasing to get a player open in the slot for a good shot on net "or" to get your quarter back D-man into the centre of the ice with a screen in front of the goalie with the other players in the defending team worrying about the guy in front of the net and the pass to the player at the outside the circle, more commonly know as the "umbrella". "
Thats great, but you forget the most important part - IF THE GOALIE ISN"T OUT OF POSITION MORE OF THEN NOT HE MAKES THE SAVE, WHICH MEANS NO GOAL. Getting a goalie moving and out of position is a KEY part to ANY PP. Know the subject before you "give a leason".
"Obviously his ice time would decrease when put behind the likes of Blake, Lidstrom, Foote, and now Hatcher. Never claimed him to be an "elite" defenseman"
Kaberles ice time would decrease if he was on the Canucks, Sens, Islanders, Sabres and Kings (probably more, but thats just off the top of my head). All of those teams have real #1 defensemen, not "fill in because we don't have a real #1 defenseman".
"Use the 9 out of 10 doctors recommend theory. If the majority says so, then it's taken for granted"
That only works if those people have some reason to be believed, people on a website don't. However a man who as assisstent GM of the Maples Leafs (basically his job to know the strenghts and weakness of players) for 12 years (he was there when Kaberle was drafted and started playing) would be an authority when judging that players talent, and hes said 3 times (that I can remember, one of which I have on tape) that Kaberle is a #4 defenseman right now, and would need to IMPROVE his play away from the puck (ie - defense) to become a #1-#2 defenseman. He also made the comment that if Klee can cover up for Gonchar, then covering Kaberle would be easy (as in - even though Kaberle's play away from the puck isn't good and needs to be improved, hes better then Gonchar). And sorry, but Bill Watters has more credibility then 35 members of hockeys future.
"News for you boy, scouting reports apply to a player throughout their career"
As yes, of course, back when Bertuzzi was drafted he neede to add weight to be effective - as true today as when it was writen. The only scouting reports (by a scout thats any good) that says Gonchar can be a #1 guy were writen when he younger. If you think Gonchar can be a#1 you've either never see him play or really have NO CLUE about defensemen.
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