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08-15-2010, 04:39 PM
  #107
CS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
But tell me how this matters? You are getting him at a discount now. It helped you almost win a Cup due to circumventing the cap. Again -- just because you're going to be punished in the future does not mean it is not CURRENTLY *TODAY* cap circumvention.
IT DID NOT HELP US ALMOST WIN THE CUP. He was on his other contract before that. So now, you're wrong once again.

Agreed, just because it's hurting us in the future does not mean that it's no cap circumvention. The fact that it's not cap circumvention means that it's not cap circumvention. You keep skipping this obvious fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I agree that just because someone is on a lower-than-market-value contract doesn't mean it's cap circumvention. Players take discounts all the time to play for their teams. But when the contract is artificially lowered in the case of extending it years down the road for minimum dollar value? That constitutes cap circumvention no matter how you slice it. You really cannot say it's not cap circumvention.
All contracts are artificially lowered whether before the contract or after the contract, and that is NOT cap circumvention.

Circumvention occurs when a team does not pay the full cap charge designated by the dollar amount over the duration of years in a contract.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you this, but what you're explaining is not now, never has been, and will NEVER be cap circumvention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Oh, now you're arguing semantics? Nice!
Kovalchuk's contract was not illegal.

They threw out Kovalchuk's contract because it was at risk for becoming illegal should he retire. The risk of retirement was made stronger by the number of years tacked onto his contract at a bargain even though they, in and of themselves, did not constitute cap circumvention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Start pointing out all these contracts that circumvent the cap by dipping to near league minimum salaries at the end of the deals. You can skip the Rangers because we don't have any. So that leaves another 29 teams for you to go through and point out.
I'll use your rules of "Cap Circumvention" where if a player is on a deal that alters his cap hit, whether it is frontloaded or backloaded, he will have his contract thrown out:

EDIT: Wow, there's way too many. I'll just do our division.

NJD: Elias, Rolston, Zajac, Parise, Clarkson, Zharkov, Pelley, Tallinder, Greene, Salmela, Hedberg
NYI: Comeau, Nielsen, Eaton, Martinek, MacDonald, Hillen, DiPietro, Roloson
NYR: Drury, White, Callahan, Prospal, Avery, Dubinsky, Boogaard, Anisimov, Boyle, Rozsival, Girardi, Gilroy, Eminger, Lundqvist, Biron
PHI: Briere, Richards, Carter, Hartnell, Laperriere, Shelley, Leino, Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, Carle, Walker, Leighton, Boucher
PIT: Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Kunitz, Cooke, Tangradi, Rupp, Godard, Martin, Goligoski, Fleury

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
That is NOT the only thing that cap circumvention is. Cap circumvention is ALSO adding the extended years that are around the minimum salary (or slightly above). These two play hand in hand because, generally, these years start around the age of 40. There is a "blatant risk" that Pronger will retire before the end of his cap. It just so happens that your GM didn't understand the rules when he signed him.
What you're proclaiming to be cap circumvention is NOT cap circumvention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
This does not matter. At all. It helped you almost win a Cup this year due to the artificially lowered cap hit. You seem to think that just because you're going to get hurt later, today somehow doesn't matter. Just laughable.
PRONGER'S CAP HIT WAS NOT LOWERED. HE BEGINS HIS CONTRACT THIS YEAR!

Oh wait, I forgot your definition of artificially lowered cap hit means. Yes, I think his cap hit was artificially lowered, but I don't remember the exact terms of the contract he signed with the Ducks.

Then again, Richards contract was artificial this year too. So was Briere's and Carter's and Leino's and Timonen's and Carle's, etc.

Oh my god! The Flyers cheated their way to the Cup Finals! Alert the media!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
And we see the market value of Pronger during his first few years. Then it drops to nothing. That's not market value. That's circumventing the cap to artificially lower the cap hit. Try and argue otherwise -- you just will end up looking foolish.
It's not circumvention.

Pronger's market value is whatever he signs for. That has nothing to do with cap circumvention.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Players do tend to want the majority of their money up front. The league and an arbitrator, though, have now shown that placing these minimum wage years at the end of a contract violates the CBA and is cap circumvention. When something is so obvious (as to the Pronger, Hossa, Kovalchuk, etc. deals) like that? Well, it makes it easy for anyone with half a brain to see the cap circumvention.
It's not cap circumvention until a player retires from one of these deals, and in Pronger's case, it can't possibly be cap circumvention because if he retires he still counts.

God this is getting annoying fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
The quip about Parise is nice and all, but that's all about limiting contract years rather than cap circumvention. Backloading a contract to buy some UFA years of a young player is simply nothing like having LEAGUE MINIMUM SALARY YEARS at the end of a players career WHEN HE WON'T ****ING PLAY. What is so hard about this? The contracts are not comparable. There is no risk of Parise quitting before his contract is up and seeing all the years that the Devils benefitted from having him at a minimal cap hit be questionable.
Pronger will still be playing according to the cap.

I'm not sure what you're missing kid, but you're unbelievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Apples and oranges. Just because you're trying to paint the apple orange, doesn't mean it suddenly can make delicious, pulpy juice

Devils fans had the same arguments that you did about frontloading. Guess who was right?
Devils fans must not realize that Kovalchuk was a risk for circumvention.

It makes them about as unbelievably and incredibly and unquestioningly lost as you are right now.


Last edited by William H Bonney: 08-15-2010 at 05:30 PM. Reason: removed flaming
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