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08-22-2010, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah I'm a big Messier supporter and I think 22nd is too low for him. As much as I love Messier I remember doing a poll a while back with Messier vs. Gretzky 1989-1999. Gretzky won, and should have so I wouldn't go that far in putting Messier ahead of him in that time frame but as crazy as it sounds I too think Mess can get underrated at times.

- Two Harts
- 6 Cups
- 7 trips to the final
- 1984, 1987, 1991 Canada Cup wins
- 2nd all-time in points
- 2nd all-time in playoff points
- captained two teams to the Cup
- 4 first team all-stars, one 2nd team all-stars

The guy brought it and while he was never shafted of a Selke he brought a two-way game and was superb on faceoffs. There aren't a lot of centers I have ahead of him other than the obvious ones. When it comes down to comparing Messier to Trottier or Clarke or Yzerman or even Sakic I rarely hesitate to pick Moose.
Messier's two-way game is vastly underrated around here. He was outright terrible defensively as a 40 year old who got way too many minutes on the Rangers. But in his prime, he was one of the most prolific penalty killers of all time (overpass's numbers show this), and he was always the guy matched against the best lines of opponents, whether he was the Edmonton Oilers, or matched against KLM in international play.

Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I would've agreed up until the last half of the 2006-07 season when Sakic was matching Thornton point-for-point in an attempt to get the Avalanche in the playoffs. That's all the evidence I need in order to be convinced that he could've done it all the same without Forsberg... though I maintain that Forsberg was the better player of the two when reasonably healthy.

And I find that Messier gets too little credit. 2nd All-Time in Points, didn't eat up Gordie Howe-type minutes, and completely elevated his game when he was the #1 center to the point that even without Art Ross Trophies, he was arguably as valuable as Mario Lemieux and maybe even more valuable than post-Oiler Gretzky. And where is he on HOH 100? Like... 22nd... well behind Lidstrom... who couldn't beat Pronger, Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, St. Louis, or Theodore for a Hart nomination, let alone two outright wins.
I agree that Messier gets too little credit around here, but Lidstrom was probably the best player in the entire league over a 10 year period. We all know that defensemen on stacked teams are not going to sniff the Hart trophy (see Doug Harvey).

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