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02-01-2011, 08:09 AM
  #80
EagleBelfour
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
can someone post something about schmidt's defensive play?

i read it here, but nowhere else.
Quickly scanning through my old biography of Schmidt:

- Named the best all-around player of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
Thanks to the memories of the decreasing old time fans, writers and most importantly on ice peers, Schmidt is still recognized as one of the greatest players in NHL history.

[B]Schmidt was considered to be the ultimate two-way player of his day, a Trottier or Steve Yzerman of the 1940s. He was small but determined. He was a strong skater and clever puck distributor but also a great finish. As beautiful as he was to watch on the offense, the Bruins long time captain took equal pride in the defensive zone, and was not afraid to get his nose dirty.
- It's also widely know that the ''Krauts'' were the line who was assign defensive duty against the other team best line in the playoffs. You can catch that in the Trail of the Stanley Cup (I didn't owned the book when I did this bio)

I think you could very well make a claim that Nighbor as an edge defensively on Nighbor. My memory is fuzzy a bit on Schmidt though, since I've research him years ago. I think you would find more quotes on his defensive abilities as a unit, praising the 'Krauts'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Comparing Coffey to Richard, who was known for circling at the blueline waiting for an outlet pass is...a little bit absurd, Eagle. We'll discuss this a little bit more later.

This is a classic "having it both ways" argument. Why did Coffey have more opportunities to make defensive plays? Because of his listed position on the lineup card? There are 60 minutes in a hockey game, and in those 60 minutes every player makes a certain number of offensive and defensive plays. Paul Coffey, as a defenseman, produced on the same offensive level as many hall of fame forwards. Criticism of his defensive game is perfectly valid, but not to the point that we're comparing him to Maurice Richard or really any forward. Coffey was an imperfect defenseman...yes, but he made a ton of good defensive plays. A forward who scored like Coffey and made as many defensive plays as him would have a legitimate claim to being the greatest 2-way forward of all time.

Again: if Coffey and Trottier score the same number of points and Coffey makes more defensive plays, isn't he contributing more to his team winning? And seriously...if you think that Paul Coffey was worse defensively than any forward, you've got a debate on your hands. By the standards of a forward (which are the standards by which we judge him offensively), Coffey was a world-class defensive player.

Considering the clear and large effect Coffey's presence had on the scoring of Gretzky, Lemieux and one other ATD calibre center (I will demonstrate this all a bit later, though it is well-known), there is certainly a good argument for taking Coffey, as he's not only scoring his own points, but increasing the output of his forwards by quite a bit.
- I'm sorry, it was a poor comparision. That's the problem when we're only 40 pick through the process. All the defenseman I could think of are not selected yet (and won't be for a while). Coffey is the only defenseman taken that is under the 'above average' line. He's actually below-average. And considering the ATD context, he's more than 'below-average'.

- Point taken. I agree to a certain extent to this. It's definitely astonishing the offensive that Coffey could generate. However, it definitely helped him more than hurt him to be surrounded by the best offensive minded talent of All-Time (Which I fully understand he was part of). In the defensive zone, Coffey was better defensively than Trottier, true. But if we give credit for Coffey for creating offense in the defensive and neutral zone, I would give credit to Trottier for his great defensive play in the neutral and offensive zone, which exceeded Coffey.

- I'll wait to see the argumentation on that before judging. You're basically saying you would take Paul Coffey over the like of Brad Park, Viacheslav Fetisov and Larry Robinson, which I definitely disagree. But I'll respond when

(Just want to reiterate that Coffey outside the Top-40 is a very fine pick, but I believe he would be a bad pick in the Top-30)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Everybody knows Richard was waiting for the Harvey feed.

I'm a Montreal Canadiens fan , a proud Quebecois and I think Richard is SLIGHTLY overrated.

And to the people not living to the beat of Montreal as I am since I'm born , strangely , there's a lot more Richard and Lafleur fanatics than Béliveau for some reasons even if everybody respect him.There's a couple of stupid young people that hate Lafleur because he has a tendency to rightfully bash the habs for the past few years but except that everybody is crazy about this guy , especially people that were there in the 70s , they deeply loves him.Richard is a legend.But I rarely hear someone being crazy about Gros Bill.He probably wasn't as thrilling.
You should know that Richard biggest contribution happened outside the hockey rink (Not that intended to do so). That's why he's a legend. When Richard was a (quite poor) analyst for TQS in the 80's, people was making fun of him and his 'legendary' status was not as brilliant. As he got sick and died, his aura of a true legend sparkled again.

Guy Lafleur is one of the best player of All-Time and the most exciting of the 70's. The population in general is still young enough to have watch him play.

Most people who saw Jean Beliveau are very old or already dead. However, I would argue that his 'aura' as a legend is stronger than the one of Lafleur. When he'll eventually die, I would be shock if he dosn't get the same treatment as Richard (National funeral, etc...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
That is true of any rushing defenseman.
Except Bobby Orr, Eddie Shore and Red Kelly, I'll agree. But that's why those players are selected later than their offensive input alone are giving. Paul Coffey is the first of those 'rushing defenseman', below average defensively taken (and very deserdly so). He was selected as one of the best 45 players of All-Time, even considering his defensive deficiency, which just show how good he was. I like the pick, I really do! But I can't wrap my head around taking Coffey over the far, far well more rounded defenseman like Robinson, Fetisov and Park.

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