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02-20-2011, 10:41 AM
  #121
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Another interesting thing about the Keats vs. Fredrickson debate, is that Fredrickson never made any PCHA all star teams. The really telling thing is that he didn't even make any all star teams in his one super dominant year in the PCHA, despite blowing the competition out of the water.
Ummm...what? I will refer you to BM67's post on the PCHA all-stars, which is simply copied from the Trail. Frank Frederickson was a 1st team all-star every season he played in the PCHA, including his rookie year, beating out guys like MacKay, Foyston and the soon-to-be-drafted scoring star in the process. He was also a 1st team all-star in the WHL in 25-26, despite not placing in the top-5 in any scoring category.

Quote:
PCHA All-Star teams:

1920-21
1st Team
xxxxxxx, G
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, C
Frank Fredrickson, C
Frank Foyston, C/RW
xxxxxxx, C/RW
xxxxxxx, F
2nd Team
Hap Holmes, G
Ernie Johnson, D
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, D
Mickey MacKay, C
xxxxxxx, RW

1921-22
1st Team
xxxxxxx, G
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, C
Mickey MacKay, C
xxxxxxx, C
Frank Fredrickson, C
xxxxxxx, RW
xxxxxxx, F
2nd Team
Hap Holmes, G
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, D
Frank Foyston, C/RW
xxxxxxx, LW
xxxxxxx, RW

1922-23
1st Team
xxxxxxx, G
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, D
Mickey MacKay, C
Frank Fredrickson, C
Frank Foyston, C/RW
Frank Boucher, C
2nd Team
Hap Holmes, G
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, D
xxxxxxx, C/RW
xxxxxxx, RW

1923-24
xxxxxxx G
xxxxxxx D
xxxxxxx D
xxxxxxx D
Frank Fredrickson C
Frank Foyston C/RW
xxxxxxx F
Frank Boucher, C

WCHL / WHL All-Star teams

1924-25
1st Team
Hap Holmes G
Herb Gardiner D
xxxxxxx D
Bill Cook RW
Duke Keats C
Mickey MacKay C
Frank Boucher C
xxxxxxx RW

1925-26
1st Team
George Hainsworth G
Eddie Shore D
xxxxxxx D
Frank Fredrickson C
Duke Keats C
Bill Cook RW
xxxxxxx RW
xxxxxxx LW
You're right that I missed Keats' NHA career, which adds something to his legacy, or at least the one full season that he was able to play. Regarding minor league track record (and the minor leagues is exactly what the Big-4 was), part of me wants to agree with you, but mostly I think you're opening a pandora's box by introducing performances from leagues which were clearly inferior to the best competition in the world. I am not one of the GMs who sees Bower's AHL years as adding anything to his legacy other than non-peak longevity. I could just as easily introduce information about how ludicrously dominant Frank Frederickson was as an amateur and in the 1920 Olympics and say "well, he was a 1st team all-star in the PCHA the moment he stepped on the ice, so obviously he was just as good as an amateur." But honestly...why? No one here cares about how players performed in bush leagues. We care about their legacy against the best competition in the world, or at least (in the case of some Europeans) the best that was available to them at the time.

To be honest, Keats' superdominant 21-22 season in the WCHL is pretty suspect, as well, for strength of competition reasons which I have already gone over. I don't think it compares well, at all, to Frederickson lapping the field in the PCHA in 22-23. I think we start to see Keats' true peak offensive value when the WCHL fills out more with top offensive players, starting in 22-23. Taking his one 5th place NHA season and his couple of Big-4 seasons into account may increase Keats' longevity value somewhat, but I don't think it increases his peak value, much, at all. I'm just not a big fan of counting bush league and amateur statistics in the ATD.

At any rate, I'm done debating Keats vs. Frederickson as that was only a necessary tool to begin with. I think it's very clear that Frederickson's peak offensive value is a good deal better than Keats', whatever other qualities they may have possessed.

edit: holy crap...lots of undrafteds. Can't believe I did that.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-20-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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