Thread: Speculation: Trade Value of Habs Players
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05-02-2011, 02:55 PM
  #72
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
And yet you seeming neglect what impact those players would bring. Kesler and Parise would bring more to this team than Subban does and in a straight up offer
Actually that's where your primary error is, in assuming their impact is higher.

I guess I have to rehash the whole speech on how complete #1 Defensemen are the most important players on most teams. They are central to all areas of the game, including the most important aspect, defense and breatouts from the defensive zone. Year after year, this gets proven more and more. Isn't it surprising that this is the first year where we don't do as bad without Markov. The simple reason is we had someone to replace him this time around. Any good goalie won't go far without one, any team won't be too good without a bonafide #1 D. There are exceptions, but they are way out of the norm. That's also the reason why I've been saying that people will be totally in awe if Markov, Subban and Price can stay healthy for a whole season, because just having those three in any lineup will make it one of the top teams.

Quote:
anyone would make the trade. Regardless, I could go on into pulling apart this ridiculous overvaluing of Subban however when you are already claiming he is possibly the top fifteen defenseman in the league and have equated his value close to Malkin or Datsyuk's,
You haven't looked at the stats, I have already put them on other threads, just do a search, among Dmen with 20+ minutes of play, Subban's GAA is one of the lowest ones in the league, among players such as Weber, Chara, Vishnovsky, Ehrhoff and Lidstrom who all have GAAs between 2,35 and 2,45 with very good goaltenders with not much difference with Price in terms of overall stats. And that's the primary key to evaluating a dman for his defensive play, not the +/-, which is GAA + GF on ES, which skewes the image of defensive play when that defenseman is supported by franchise forwards, which they all had, except for Subban.

Also, thanks for twisting my words, as I said BETWEEN 15th and 30th.

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there frankly is not a point. I would say, "post this on the main forum and see how fast it is rightfully torn to pieces for thinking Subban/Pac is worth Malkin or Subban > Weber" but than we would have, "Oh well everyone just hates Subban!"
Instead of that, I invite you to wait and see what the future will give. That's gonna be much more indicative than the general opinion of amateurs.

Quote:
No mate, you are the biggest homer on this forum. This is an indisputable fact because you have essentially stated Subban has more value than Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos and the list goes on.
No, refer to the top part of this present post. It's because I believe that #1 dmen are the most important piece to any team's success. Goalies used to hold that place just recently in the early 90s to mid 2000s, and centermen were the ones before that. Almost every team today has a goalie who has the capacity to go on a run, so as they might still be the most important, the difference maker will then be the second most important which are #1 Ds. Pittsburg struggled much more when they lost Gonchar to injury and had Malkin AND Crosby on the lineup, than without the two forwards and having Letang, Martin and Michalek healthy. The difference in records is astounding. And this pattern repeats with almost every team. Centermen are important, better centermen are chose over better wingers simply because that role is more important. And it's now the same for dmen. They have taken that place because the game has become very technical and strategic, and logically, that's the position where you would want the most talent. And I'm not the one making this up. People like Scotty Bowman seem to think likewise.

Personally, I've seen Lidstrom come into this league, and Subban's defensive dominance in his rookie season is very similar to what Lidstrom did, and coincidently, Lidstrom has said he likes to watch Subban play, quite probably because he sees similarities to when he first came into the league. I see it, and many people see it. He's a bonafide elite franchise D.

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I have not come across a fan here from any fanbase who is that blinded by their favorite player.
My favorite player is still Markov, just to show how deluded you are. Instead of attacking me, why don't you grow-up, open NHL.com, take a look at the stats section, chose TOI for the category of stats, take note of all the Dmen with 20+ minutes of average of TOI per game, collate this on a excel spreadsheet, then go to the plus/minus category, and filter through the GA collumn and find that number for every defenseman with 20+ minutes of TOIPG, than make a formula to calculate that player's GAA per game (60 minutes), and Subban is among the elite in Dmen in the league, in his rookie season. Likewise for the playoffs. While still being close for points per game, while also finishing in the top 10 in goals for all Dmen.

Also please note that I've been repeating this stuff about #1 Ds way before Subban came along. Many posters will attest to that. It has nothing to do with homerism, but rather has to do with our diverging conceptions of the impact of centerman vs defenseman, and I will always favor a franchise D over a franchise centerman, no matter if the centerman has a bigger reputation because of experience over a small actual difference in talent.

A homer won't give you a ton of arguments to state his case. Usually, homer posts don't run long and don't have much substance. I've noticed a recurring theme of your own though: Attacking the messenger instead of the message.

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