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05-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Student Of The Game
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The only thing that really matters here is that Tony Esposito is definately better than Curtis Joseph.
Agree. Although the gap gets smaller in the playoffs. I have defended Espo's playoff record but I would do the same for Cujo, to a larger extent. I just don't understand why the guy is considered such a choker by some. I think he had a few brilliant series for both the Leafs and the Oilers. He was also good for Detroit.

Both Cujo and Espo have almost the same "career adjusted playoff sv%":

Joseph: .910, 8106 min
Esposito: .909, 6007 min

(normalized to .905, meaning both guys, on the aggregate, averaged higher than the league average)

I think Cujo, individually, performed better in the playoffs than Espo, but of course our evaluations shouldn't be focused 100% on the playoffs, either.

I was starting to question why I have Belfour so high, and then I took another look at his all-star voting in a Roy and Hasek-less world, and it's almost identical to Espo: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6. Then you add in the fact that it was a deeper and more competitive era (20 years later) and the fact that he was much better in the playoffs, he definitely deserves it. Anyway, what does this mean for Joseph? His all-star voting is as follows, with Roy and Hasek removed: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6. Very strong, just not Espo-level.

I don't think I'm saying anything overpass would disagree with here.


Re: Durnan being ahead of Esposito. Vecens, are you sure you're not just defaulting to canon when you make a statement like this? I realize I'm the one who's against the grain here, but hear me out.

xth-best season Esposito Durnan
1 1st AST (1970), Hart-2, sv%-1 1st AST (1947) - in WW2-recovering NHL, over Brimsek
2 1st AST (1980), Hart-3, sv%-2 1st AST (1949) - in WW2-recovering NHL, over Rayner, Hart-2
3 1st AST (1972), Hart-8, sv%-1 1st AST (1950) - in WW2-recovering NHL, over Rayner, Hart-5 (two votes)
4 2nd AST (1974), Hart-5, sv%-2 1st AST (1946) - in WW2-recovering NHL, over Brimsek, Hart-3
5 2nd AST (1973), Hart-9, sv%-2 1st AST (1944) - over brutal wartime goalies
6 3rd AST (1971), Hart-8, sv%-4 1st AST (1945) - over brutal wartime goalies
7 3rd AST (1978), Hart-9, sv%-3 nondescript season
8 5th AST (1979), Hart-11, sv%-4 DNP
9 6th AST (1976), sv%-6 DNP
10 6th AST (1977), sv%-7 DNP

Are Durnan's three best seasons better than Espo's (look at when they were, and who each goalie beat)? I don't think so. They are close though.

Are Durnan's 4th-6th-best seasons better than Espo's? A layman would look at them and say they are 1st AST years, so they must be better. But two of them are 1944 and 1945, so we know better than that. His 4th-best in 1946.... it's debatable.

Durnan's nondescript 7th-best season is obviously not better than Espo's.

And Espo played an 8th, 9th, 10th season, and beyond, at a pretty high level and deserves credit for that.

I'm not seeing why Durnan is "definitely" ahead, other than canon. He gets a lot of mileage out of the 6 first ASTs, but those aren't that great once you really look at them, much like Hainsworth's three straight Vezinas.

Last edited by seventieslord: 05-28-2011 at 01:58 AM.
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