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05-27-2011, 03:23 PM
  #36
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
"8 times backstopped his team to the cup finals" is a bit of a smokescreen statement, too. Two of those times were solely due to regular season W/L record and the other 8 were from him winning a two-game PCHA playoff.
The point IS his regular season record!!! At least when comparing him to Tony Esposito, whose regular season record you vault. He won time and again against several HHOFers and ATD scorers. He was the man out west, in terms of the crease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Lehman played in a league that usually had four teams, and he was often considered the best there. That league was one of two major leagues. (in 1922-1924 it was one of three leagues) Where does a goalie who is 1st/2nd in one of the two leagues rank overall? Could be 1st, could be 5th. We can only speculate. Furthermore, in these times, the 7-8 best goalies in hockey weren't the 7-8 playing in the PCHA and the NHA/NHL. There were other good goalies playing senior hockey, for example. When you see people saying, and rightfully so, "a top-10 back then is like a top-20 now", the same thing has to apply equally to all players, and that includes goaltenders. You dominate against a smaller, weaker talent pool and your all-time greatness has to be considered accordingly.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So, is an all-star voting record of 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, in a three-team league, generally considered to be an offensive league with less impressive goaltending, that was one of two/three big leagues at the time, where even if those leagues were consolidated, the talent pool size would be very small and would not contain all the best players, more impressive than an all-star voting record of 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7 sixty years later? Not necessarily! Or, to simplify further, is being the 4th-best goalie of the 1910-1925 generation more impressive than being the 4th/5th-best goalie of the 1970-1985 generation sixty years later? I think It takes very little era discounting to conclude that it isn't.
I sure wish you took the smallness of the league into consideration when you were discussing top-10 scoring by Eddie Oatman. I did an indepth analysis of each and every PCHA season of a few drafts back, showing him as having three great PCHA seasons and a bunch of 8th, 9th 10th scoring seasons, which made him the THIRD top scorer on his team, not at all impressive given the ice time/lack of multiple lines. Your discounting of a 3- and 4-team league accomplishment during an era with at least two top leagues and some quality talent elsewhere (how can one ignore the WHA and International hockey then between 1970-1985 in determining Esposito's seeding relative to the best of his era - you just compare him to NHLers in your claims - more discounting? Hell, in terms of big game play, Vladimir Dzurilla can be expected to step in and win a game by himself!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I mean, clearly there is a ton of league/era discounting going on already, otherwise, with an all-star record like that, he would clearly by the #1 goalie of all-time. Right?
Well he certainly should be drafted a lot higher in the ATD, as several GMs concurred by their reactions to the pick this draft. Tony Esposito may be arguably better but not clearly so. That's the rub.

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