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06-20-2011, 05:33 PM
  #126
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
We'll be as much contenders next year as the Bruins were last year. Probably more so. I'm quite convinced that the organization is building towards a competitiveness window starting next year, and then consistent competitiveness from then on a la Red Wings or New Jersey.
So we're a dynasty in the making then? Starting next year we're a 100+ point team for the forseeable future?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I realize you haven't seen Markov lately, but you're woefully underestimating him. He's been facing the Habs' toughest minutes very effectively, and driving his pairing in doing so alongside Komisarek who just isn't as good. He's a heck of a lot more than merely "adequate". Wiz is "adequate". Markov is way better than that.
Markov is one of the best offensive blueliners in the game. He's not elite defensively though. If he was, he'd win the Norris every year.

He's never even been nominated and it's because he's not the all-around elite player that you're claiming he is. He's very good, so was Thomas Kaberle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Clearing the net in front requires strength. It's in my list. It doesn't require hitting people, just pushing them. Gill can do that and he doesn't hit people.
Who cares?

I don't distinguish between pushing or whatever... the guy can't clear the net the way others do. He was great with Komisarek and they benefitted from each other. It wasn't a one way relationship. Komi provided Markov with protection and room to operate. He wasn't the parasite that you've argued he was. They were great together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Like I said, here's a guy who's held the Habs defense together while Subban grew into a #1 D-man, and been effective doing it. But then he gets blamed because he makes turnovers (as all PMDs do) and he misses the net (though no more than anyone else really). He's getting much more flack than he deserves.
I hope we dump him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But you didn't really respond to what I was saying.
If you agree that Gomez can improve his production, matter of fact you're expecting him to, then don't you also agree that the same can be said for Gionta and Cammy? Or are you expecting them both to score less than 50points again?
Don't you think Plekanec should likely reach his 60-70 pt mark as well?
A.Kost is the only guy I don't expect much of an improvement over. 20G mark, 40-50pts is probably what we'll get.
MaxPac, more than 24pts? I think we can agree on that right?
Eller, more than 17? I certainly hope so..
I don't see us with a great offense next year. I don't think our forwards are good enough.

As for all our forwards being better, it rarely works out that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So, if we can agree that our skilled players are all likely to improve their scoring, wouldn't that apply to our team? Not to mention, there's a chance we add Jagr, who's likely a safe bet for 50-60pts (but that's not done so I'm not counting it in).
If we add somebody else, then that's a different discussion. I'm not talking about Jagr or anyone else until it happens. The club we have right now though, doesn't have forwards that are going to scare anyone in this league. If we add Sidney Crosby, my opinion will change.

Jagr? Who knows? He could pull a Selanne and be a 50 goal guy... or he could be a shadow of his former self.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I said it's overrated not that there's no benefits. I also said grit is much more important.
I do feel size on the top 6 has its importance, but I don't think it's the be all of end all. But I feel we have it in MaxPac and AK, and possibly Eller. If we add Jagr, we would add some more again.
Just because he throws the odd big hit, it doesn't make AK gritty. He's not a pushover but he's hardly a power forward and he doesn't come close to making up for the lack of size from his linemates. He's never going to be a power forward. The only guy we have in the top six with that potential next year is MaxPac. The other guys are five foot nothing. It's all well and good to point to a couple of guys and say look we have some size, but compared to other clubs our primary scorers are very small esp our first line.

And I think MaxPac is good and has very good potential. But he's still very young and I worry that folks are going to put too much pressure on him next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
FYI, Markov's GAA per 60 minutes over the last 6 seasons is very close to Lidstrom's. Lidstrom gets a better 5-on-5 +/- because he plays with Dats and Zets who produce a lot more than the forwards Markov had. But the goals allowed is about the same, for ES and PK and they both played top minutes, so their opposition is the same. Markov is one of the closest players to Lidstrom in defensive style of play. Markov isn't just really good with the puck, he's one the best positional dman in the league. Stop talking out of your hat. You run that mouth of yours like there's no tomorow but you have no idea how many fallacies you propagate as 'truth'. One-dimensional defensively
Wow, what a shock that Lidstrom gets all the Norris trophies Markov doesn't sniff it. He's never even received an all-star selection. I wonder why that is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Go check their goals allowed stats. Next thing you'll say is that Markov has had better goalies, yet the Wings have had the best depth and talent in the league in the last 10 years. That's not what Markov had, yet their GAA is about the same.
The Wings have had pretty much the same goals against that we have for the past few years except this season when we didn't have Markov... and we let in 40 fewer goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Stop living in the cult of great men, get some perspective and put things into context, instead of always using a bygone past as the yardstick for the present. (such as yesterday's "cup winners all have 2-3-4 future HOF" I stopped reading there and understood it would be pointless to explain how ALL your comparisons are based on very different models that give much different results and can't be compared).
Stop using facts about the past? Okay...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
BTW, if you want to question my view of Lidstrom, understand that I've been a huge fan of him since 92, have seen him play A LOT, and know what he is capable of. I've been also following #79's career since he started in the NHL, and Markov isn't far off from Lidstrom.
And yet... the other guys seem to win the trophies. The other guys get the all-star selections. You'd think that being so incredibly legendary that Markov would make it wouldn't you? I guess the whole league is just against him.

I know that that's all in the past and those facts don't back you up, but hey... that's been the case for a long time. He was more comparable to Thomas Kaberle in his prime than Lidstrom and that's how he'll be remembered across the league. He's an amazing PP guy (one of the very best in the league) but that's his strength.

He won't sniff the HOF and you can scream at the top of your lungs about the injustices of the world but it's never going to happen. Chara will be there. Pronger will be there. Lidstrom will be there but Markov won't sniff it. Why? Because he's not nearly as complete as they are. He's very good but he's not nearly as good as you think he is. He doesn't control the game the way those other guys do and there's a very good chance that his best days are well behind him at this point. One more injury to that knee and he's done.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 06-20-2011 at 05:53 PM.
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