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06-21-2011, 09:19 AM
  #991
sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
No, fangraphs has his UZR/150 at 2.7. And even if you were looking at straight UZR, it's at 0.9. Not sure where you see this 0.3. But fangraphs defaulted to 350 minimum innings, where he was ranked 12th in UZR/150, and 10th in UZR, and that's what I was looking at. And, really, anything less than 350 at this point is a part-time player, or part-time third baseman, so I wouldn't count them anyway. They just skew the rankings of full-time 3Bs.

He's played 7 effective seasons at 3B, defensively. I need more than a third of a season (most of which included him having mono) before I can conclude he will never again play 3B effectively. I mean, what a laughable conclusion to come to. Players with a multi-year track record who struggle (whether it be offensively or defensively) for a third of the season bounce back all the time. Some guys struggle for an entire season and still bounce back. And it's not like Inge is 40. I just don't see how you can sit there and definitively say that Inge will never be effective defensively ever again. Except when I consider your irrational hate towards the guy. Then I can see it
Inge may not be 40 but his knees are the equivalent of 45 or 50, at least. He hasn't been close to the same since those surgeries in 2009. No power or timing at the plate. Not the same range or arm velocity at 3b. Why? Because his legs and knees are weak and they're sapping his ability to push off with strength both at the plate and in the field. It's clear to anyone who cares to pay attention.

Unless they're on steroids, players with catastrophic knee injuries in their early-mid 30s do not miraculously bounce back. They either adapt to utilize other strengths (for Inge that would mean becoming a contact hitter - good luck with that) or they fall off the cliff. We can talk about any number of players that have had this happen - players get old and when they're not juicing, their level of play declines. Injuries accelerate and intensify this process. It's baffling why you think that Inge's play this season has anything to do with his play 7 seasons ago when he had good strong knees.

He's done. Accept it and move on.

Quote:
No one said that. I called this a terrible deal the day it happened. I didn't need to wait until Sizemore started hitting. The kid has a lot of talent. They let go of Polanco partly because they felt Sizzemore could take over. Unfortunately, he suffered an ankle injury that tanked his 2010 season. But once healthy and tearing up AAA, the Tigers never really gave him a chance. But the upside is still there. And they gave him away for a guy they could have had for free and who is interchangeable with the other 3 leftys in the pen.
So the Tigers had to keep Sizemore around because they made a stupid decision to dump Polanco and Sizemore was the supposed replacement. That's genius.

I also like how when other players hit well at AAA, it doesn't really matter because they are no-talent hacks. But when it's Sizemore, it's a sign of his talent and upside. Even though he never proved he could hit a beach ball in the majors and other guys did much better in their auditions.

Quote:
Stop with the hyperbole. No one is saying Sizemore is a budding superstar. But he has talent and upside. Something Worth does not have. What Worth has is defensive ability. That all spells: bench player. He is what he is.

But yeah, Worth has been hitting well for two years and Sizemore hasn't been able to hit for two years. That's why their career OPS is 3 hundredths of a point apart. Please. This is ridiculous. If you think Danny Worth has the upside Sizemore does, then you obviously don't follow the Tigers minor league system. You gave some love to Rhymes earlier too. For someone who hates the way Jim Leyland loves players like Don Kelly, you sure think highly of other players in the same category.
I don't particularly care for Rhymes but he hit over .300 over 54 games in 2010. That's not bad. Arguing between Sizemore, Rhymes, and Worth is like arguing between Ramon Santiago, John MacDonald, and Nick Punto. They're all backup infielders. It's splitting hairs. And I don't buy Sizemore's "upside" as you clearly do.

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That's because Sizemore is a second baseman. If the A's want to adapt him to 3B, hey, that's their prerogative. The transition isn't going to be immediate. And stop with the hyperbole. Again. No one is calling Sizemore a messiah. Why does he have to be a messiah for it to be a bad trade? The answer is he doesn't. You making it sound that way just discredits your flaky position.
You used Don Kelly at 3b as justification that the Sizemore deal was "AWFUL". Don't believe me? Your own words:

Quote:
A good 3B prospect who is years away and a meh 3B prospect who is at least a couple years away and currently over-achieving. Certainly no one who was definitely going to beat out Sizemore anytime soon, as you imply. Rhymes? Worth? Please, these are bench players. With Sizemore gone, the Tigers literally have no 2B prospects worth noting anymore. A couple scrappy, hard-working, marginal player with little talent, which Leyland is really excited about, I'm sure, but nothing for anyone else to be excited about. And they only have Don Kelly to plug into 3B.

The Sizemore trade was AWFUL.
If Sizemore and 3b don't belong in the same argument, you should not have included "We're stuck with ****** Don Kelly filling in at 3b" as part of your argument on why the Sizemore deal was "AWFUL".

Quote:
Where in the hell are you getting these numbers? Erie has 4 players hitting over .315 - 3 outfielders and a DH. No 2Bs or 3Bs. Toledo doesn't have a single player hitting over .315, let alone a 2B or 3B. They also don't have a 3B prospect in Erie hitting .300. Martinez is an ok 3B prospect and is hitting .288. And Castellanos is not in Lakeland, he's in Grand Rapids. This entire part of your post is pure fantasy, a complete fabrication.

I'm not worried about the depth of the system though. And I'm not worried about 3B prospects (Castellanos is good and Martinez is ok). I'm worried about the Tigers not having a homegrown 2B; not having a quality 2B prospect. And they have none now. Except for your make-believe guys.
First off, here's where I got the stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...gi?id=9be480d0

Second, it's cute that you waited until these guys had a couple 0-fers at the dish so you could claim my numbers are off. As of Friday, Argenis Diaz (who plays 3b) and Rhymes (who plays 2b) were both over .315. They had bad weekends and they're now at .305 and .304. As of Friday, Martinez was hitting .303. He went 2 for 18 over the weekend so he's down a bit. I don't think Rhymes is a top-flight prospect, but he filled the gap pretty well last year. If you're talking about track records, Rhymes at least has 2010 he can point to and show some amount of MLB success for a prolonged period. He might be able to fill in and not embarrass himself for a year or so until a real 2b comes along.

You might want to actually look at the stats before making ridiculous claims that I'm making stuff up. And responding promptly (or not at all) would help too, since stats for current seasons, y'know, they um, change. Cuz these guys are playing every day.

Quote:
No I actually didn't include Inge's OPS in my argument, but thanks for fabricating that. The man made of straw looks proud.

You love your tiny sample sizes because that's all you have to support what you'd like to see happen. But Inge has a track record that Kelly doesn't. And as much as you don't want to hear it, Inge has earned the opportunity to get back to an acceptable level, because Inge at his normal level is worth a hell of a lot more than Don Kelly. That's the reality. Not because Leyland loves Inge.
52 games is not a tiny sample size. It's a third of a season. That's enough time for a team to fall out of playoff contention. Are 10 starts a "tiny sample size" for a pitcher? If you had a guy go 1-9 with an ERA over 7.00, would you keep on starting him just because he was really good in 2006? I don't like Don Kelly at all, but he's actually played better than Inge has this season. That's the most damning piece of evidence against Inge that one could possibly put forward. Kelly is one of the worst players in MLB. And Inge has been substantially worse than him for 1/3 of a season.

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