Habs management doesn't get it...(umpteenth toughness thread)
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08-26-2011, 02:36 AM
Join Date: Jun 2002
Originally Posted by
Half the guys you've mentioned on Ottawa weren't playing under Martin!
Uhm, like who? Martin was in Ottawa from '95 to '04.
The players I mentioned are as follows: Chara, Neil, Fisher, Hnidy, then had others like Rob Ray, Leschyshyn, Todd Simpson, Varada, Bonvie
Chara - 3 of his 4 Senator seasons were under Martin. He averaged higher PIMs under Martin than under any other coach in his career. He also fought significantly more under Martin than under any other coach in his career.
Neil - set his personal PIM record under Martin. Fought
more under Martin than ever since. In fact, his three seasons under Martin, he fought more than in any other season since.
Fisher - not a fighter, but very gritty and a good fighter when he does drop the gloves. Had his two most active fighting seasons under Martin.
Hnidy - broke into the NHL under Martin despite being a limited defenseman who could just fight and play a gritty game. Had his most fights of his career under Martin and set personal PIM records.
Of the others I listed: Rob Ray was only brought in during Martin's time; same for Bonvie (though both were at the end of their careers and barely played in Ottawa, they did have some effect and their respective acquisitions were demonstrative of Ottawa's inclination to actually goon it up with other clubs, hence their pummelling of Philly); the others I listed, too, were brought in exclusively under Martin's regime.
So in fact, no, you're
wrong in claiming that these players were added after Martin left. Your assertion that these players got tougher after Martin left is also entirely wrong. I don't understand how you could so adamantly contradict me when the facts are so easily accessible. Peculiar indeed. You should have stuck to your myth that
you watched the games, so you know!
rather than engage in this, because the fight logs are listed; the PIMs are listed, and these players I mentioned were more aggressive than ever under Martin.
EDIT: One more note on Martin: Ottawa set their personal record for most fighting majors in a season under Martin. While they were near the bottom-ranked in the NHL under Martin's reign in the '90s for fighting majors, from 2000-2004, Ottawa was consistently at least the middle of the pack, putting up more fighting majors than Toronto and Philly--and this was without a pure goon for much of that time, meaning they had greater team toughness and legit hockey players who could fight, much like Boston of today. By 3 seasons after Martin left Ottawa, they were back to being ranked 27th in the NHL for fighting majors. It's only been as Ottawa's declined to a bottomfeeder that they've looked to acquire goons, and that is for the very basic reason that when you're a terrible team, you need to entertain fans somehow.
Originally Posted by
As for your assessment of Winchester, I guess no one is good enough in that department unless they play like Iginla, right?
This is a pretty silly statement. I never made any such claim. I said Winchester's not good enough, and listed why I thought so. I'm not sure why you felt the need to reduce and simplify my explanation for why I felt Winchester was limited and not a good fit to saying I only wanted an Iginla. It doesn't feel conducive to a worthwhile discussion to simplify and blatantly misrepresent my words, because then I must clarify them again to you.
I will give you examples, then:
I believe Shawn Thornton to be a worthwhile 4th liner because he can skate, forecheck, stick up for teammates, and doesn't hurt you defensively.
I don't mind Boulton much because he can forecheck, hit hard, and understands hockey fundamentals.
I don't even mind Janssen, even though I consider him limited and a goon, because he fully understands his role and he can actually forecheck and lay out big hits. He can change the feel of a game and have some impact purely based on hitting and doing what needs to be done. Mind you, I don't think such a limited player fits in Montreal, where 4 lines ought to be rolled.
Winchester, on the other hand, cannot fight. He'd be pummelled by any worthwhile goon. He'd have no impact on the game because he's not a devastating hitter, and would serve as a punching bag to the smaller Thornton, Lucic, and be ragdolled if he was ever a nuisance to Chara. No, I see no value in such a player. And that doesn't mean I need Iginla. It means I want a player who can have some impact on the forecheck, play some solid fundamentals, and actually hold his own in a fight. In other words: a legit fourth liner who would be a fourth liner even without fighting, but who--when fighting--actually does fight! Does that sound like Iginla?
Of Winchester's 10 fights last season:
- he narrowly beat the much smaller and older Jamal Mayers who's unfortunately seen better days (though Mayers completely outclassed him in a fight earlier in the season)
- he beat Sutherby, whom Subban was able to outmuscle
- the only heavyweight he was able to 'beat' was Staubitz, who's not a very good fighter himself, and who's 4 inches shorter. Staubitz also clearly was coming back in the fight when it ended, so it was even a borderline win.
He lost to any heavyweight he faced, and generally faced middle weights.
Of his previous 10 fights:
- he did not face one heavyweight, and he grappled and held on to all of them, not clearly winning any decision while losing some
Winchester would not keep any opposing team honest. He's the type of fighter that middle weights enjoy fighting because they have a 50/50 shot at beating a 6'5 guy and pumping up their team in the process; much like Rypien beating up Gill. It's far more motivating to see your 5'11 middle weight go toe to toe with the opposing team's most active fighter who's 6'5. Winchester would be detrimental to Montreal because of this, I'd say.
Last edited by Mike8: 08-26-2011 at
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