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08-30-2011, 07:29 PM
  #13
BillyShoe1721
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[QUOTE=TheDevilMadeMe;36319835]
Quote:
MCDOUGALL

1895
1. Haviland Routh = 19 goals in 8 games
2. Norman Rankin = 11 goals in 8 games
3. Arthur Swift = 10 goals in 6
3. Herbert Russell = 10 goals in 8 games
3. Robert MacDougall = 10 goals in 8 games

As we can see, MacDougall's vaunted 3rd place finish is a tie for 3rd, with a lower goals per game average than Dolly Swift, and only 53% of Routh's total.
Valid point.
Quote:
1896
1. Robert MacDougall = 10 goals in 6 games
2. Clare McKerrow = 8 goals in 6 games
3. Shirley Davidson = 8 goals in 7 games
4. Arthur Swift = 8 goals in 8 games
5. Harry Westwick = 8 goals in 8 games

MacDougall's best season, though we should all note that it involved a sample size of 6 games.
I don't see why him playing 6 games matters at all whatsoever. Doesn't it say that his season is that much more impressive that he didn't just lead in goals/game, but in overall scoring as well, playing just 6 games?

Quote:
1899
MacDougall finished 7th with 7 goals, 39% of what 1st place Harry Trihey had. Sure, he was 1st in goals per game with 7 goals in only 2 games, but... it was 2 freaking games! And he didn't even blow away the competition, 2nd place in overall points Clare McKerrow had 12 goals in 4 games, which I think is far more impressive.
McDougall scored at a higher clip than anyone else that year. I don't care how many games he played.

Quote:
MCGIMSIE

I'm going to use this source: http://hobokin.net/kenorastats1.html for McGimsie's competition, with a correction to Tommy Phillips' numbers in 04-05, as per Iain.

1902-03: McGimsie placed 1st according to Iain, but I couldn't find a source for league scoring.
I'm going to need a legit source for this or for Iain to validate this to believe it.


Quote:
1903 Challenge Match vs. the Ottawa Silver Seven
Quote:
: Scored 3 of his team's 4 goals over two games. Yes, that's the dynasty Silver Seven - the best team in all of hockey and McGimsie scored 3 goals against them. Seems like he could do just fine against good competition. By the way, does MacDougall have any record in clutch games to speak of?
I don't believe there is a full record of his playoff exploits, the only thing that I can find is he had 1 goal in 1 game in 83-84 and 3 goals in 2 games in 98-99.

Quote:
1903-04
Billy McGimsie = 14 goals (Iain has McGimsie with 16 goals, still good for 1st)
Harry Bright = 13 goals
Si Griffis = 12 goals
Jack Brodie = 9 goals
Okay, so he beat out 2 guys that have never been drafted in any draft here before and a defenseman? Hardly impressive at all.

Quote:
1904-05
Tommy Phillips = 29
Billy McGimsie = 28
Billy Breen = 19
Si Griffis = 15
Clint Bennest = 14
Better. By the way, do we have a source for games played to determine goals/game for those guys? That would certainly provide some more concise context in which to judge them.
Quote:
1905-06
Billy Breen = 28
Tommy Phillips = 23
Billy McGimsie = 19 (Iain has him with 21 goals, still 3rd)
Billy Kean = 11
Si Griffis = 8

As Iain said, the Manitoba League was basically, Tommy Phillips, Billy McGimsie, and Billy Breen, then everyone else when it came to goal scoring.
So you admit that McGimsie had no depth of competition in this league? I see 3 total relevant players that he had to compete with for finishes, one of them being a defenseman.

Quote:
COMPARING THEM
  • McDougall percentages: 100, 86 (of Cam Davidson), 53 (of Haviland Routh), 39 (of Harry Trihey)
  • McGimsie percentages: 100, 100, 97 (of Tommy Phillips), 68/75* (of Billy Breen) *depending on which number you use
  • Again, see my note about quality and depth of competition. You accuse me of statistical smoke, and you're using it yourself here. That 39% is as deceiving a number as it gets. McDougall led the league in goals/game!


    Quote:
  • Note on competition: McDougall's league was probably the best league in the world, McGimsie's league wasn't. But that doesn't necessarily mean McDougall's league was better than McGimsie's, considering how much hockey advanced between the 1890s and the 1900s. For example, Tommy Phillips was much better than anyone who played in McDougall's league.
  • See my note above about depth of competition. McGimsie basically had to compete against 2 forwards for scoring finishes, and one of them is another MLD forward! McDougall was competing against 6 legitimate ATD forwards, and one that shifted positions. I don't see how one could argue McGimsie's league is close to McDougall's in terms of competition.

    Quote:
  • Even if McDougall's league was stronger (and neither of us really knows for sure), it certainly wasn't stronger enough to overcome how much more thoroughly McGimsie dominated his league.
I think we can certainly make a pretty educated guess as to which league is better, and I think it's pretty obvious McDougall's was.

Quote:
CONCLUSION
  • Billy McGimsie was at least as good a goal scorer as Bob McDougall
  • Anecdotally, McGimsie is known to have been at least as much of a playmaker as a goal scorer; McDougall seems to have nothing but the goals he scored
  • McGimsie was a relative superstar out west (along with Si Griffis, below Tommy Phillips)
  • McDougall's own profile talks about him being overshadowed by teammate defensemen Mike Grant and Graham Drinkwater
Yet again, see my note about the depth and quality of competition. Who cares who was seen as a "superstar"? Why does that matter at all?

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