View Single Post
08-31-2011, 01:15 PM
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
First Lines comparison

I had to go back to this post, since there was so much wrong with it.

Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
1st Lines




Green and Mickoski are pretty similar players. They're the hard workers on this line designed to get the puck to their more skilled teammates. I adjusted Mickoski's games played to 834, making his career adjusted PPG .5324. Green's is .5831. Remove Green's last season where he was a non-factor, and it goes up to .6464. Advantge to Redvers. But, Mickoski did it in the NHL for longer in a more competitive era. At the same time, Red Green has a very impressive NOHA career that has to be accounted for.
Why does Green get his worst season removed and Mickoski doesn't?


Green: 81, 56, 47(total 184)
Mickoski: 58, 53, 52(total 163)
This is absolute garbage and I can't believe you thought I'd let you get away with it after I pointed out in your previous series that you can't just take VS2 numbers of guys who played in split leagues and compare them with guys who played in the consolidated NHL. Green's seasons before the 1926 consolidation need to be VS1 if you are going to compare them to guys who played in the consolidated NHL!

These are their actual points percentage numbers:

Mickoski: 58, 53, 52, 49, 49, 42, 39 (total = 342)
Green: 74, 55, 39, 31, 18, 0, 0 (total = 217)

I wonder why you stopped after their best three seasons.

Even their best three seasons come out only 168-163 in favor of Green when you do the math right.

That said, I think Green is the slightly better offensive player for 2 reasons:

1) His best season was better (though not by as much as your funny math tried to show)
2) He did have that one great season in the NOHA before coming to the NHL.

Away from the puck, Mickoski owns Green. Mickoski has a fine two-way game that Green doesn't have at all. And while Green is something of a physical presence, he doesn't hold a candle to Mickoski when it comes to battling for the puck.

Overall, I'd lean towards Mickoski as the better player, but even if they are equal in a vacuum, Mickoski is much better at the role they play on this line - the battling winger for a smurf of a center.

That brings us to Robbie Ftorek and Billy McGimsie. Both are very strong skaters and stickhandlers. Both are rather small as well. Since I can't win any debate with Ftorek as my center because everyone here hates the WHA, I'm not going to waste my time. McGimsie appears to be better offensively, but I have some questions. TDMM, who was McGimsie's competition in 02-03 and 03-04 when he led the league in goals? And who were some of the other players that were near the top of the points table in the other years? I honestly don't know the answer, I'd like to know. I also think it's important to note that McGimsie was playing in, at best, the 2nd beast league at the time. His Rat Portage teams were twice beaten by eastern team and were not as good as their opponents. But, Ftorek is a grittier player, and provides better two-way play. Robbie also provides more leadership in the locker room. I'm going to wait until TDMM answers my questions before passing judgement. It appears McGimsie's offense gives him an edge despite Ftorek bringing more intangibles to the table, but we'll see.
Nice to see you retract some of this after I showed that McGimsie is almost certainly a better offensive player than your "star," McDougall. But I still feel compelled to chastise you for a particularly outrageous statement:

I honestly can't believe you used the "Rat Portage lost to the team in the East twice" line of reasoning to disparage McGimsie:

1) McGimsie scored 3 of his teams 4 goals one of the two times they lost, so he personally seemed to do well against the "increased competition" from the East.

2) More importantly, the Thistles actually beat their Eastern opponent and won the Cup with McGimsie on the team! It's what they are famous for! You seriously thought I'd let you get away with pointing out that McGimsie's team lost twice while ignoring the time they won?

Also, one quote about Ftorek being "hard working" and "fiesty" is all you have about his "grit." Good for him. We'll see if he can do it against the tight-checking style of Eden Hall's defense, something he never had to face in the WHA. I buy Ftorek as a decent defensive presence (no better than Mickoski), but as a guy who will be effective in the physical game? No way.

That brings us to the two all stars of the line, Drozdetsky and McDougall, maybe the 2 best RWers in the draft. Do we know why Tikhonov didn't like Drozdetsky? Was it his attitude? Was he an offense-only player? Was he selfish? Or just because Tikhonov was nuts?
As far as I know, there is no information available as to what Drozdetsky did or if he did do anything. There is a lot of information available that Tikhonov was, in fact, nuts.

Drozdetsky's peak is impressive. How does it stack up to McDougall's? Drozdetsky finished 3rd in Soviet scoring twice, which is impressive. McDougall led his league in scoring once, was 3rd twice, and was 1st in goals/game another year. Certainly, Drozdetsky played in a much more competitive era, but is it enough to make up for McDougall's more impressive finishes? McDougall the 2nd highest scoring player of his era, being three one hundreths of a goal/game behind Haviland Routh. I can't help but think McDougall is a better offensive player. Neither player brings much in terms of intangibles to the table.
Here are their percentages:

McDougall VS1: 100, 86 (of Cam Davidson), 53 (of Haviland Routh), 39 (of Harry Trihey)
Drozdetsky VS1: 74 (to Makarov), 70 (to Makarov), 59 (to Makarov)

Sergei Makarov was a much better offensive player than anyone McDougall competed against in the 1890s. Just for reference, here are Drozdetsky's #2 numbers (against competition likely closer to McDougall's):

Drozdetsky VS2: 95 (to Kapustin), 89 (to Krutov), 62 (to Kozhevnikov)

The only thing I'm sure of is that Sergei Makarov was, by far, the best offensive player either competed against. Other than that, who knows? These are two of the best offensive wingers in the draft. Personally, I prefer Drozdetsky because he was playing against more known commodities and has a great record in International tournaments, while McDougall doesn't have a record in clutch play. But that's a personal preference; I don't think either guy has a real advantage over the other.

Overall, I'd call 1st lines are a very slight advantage to Philadelphia, for now. I'm willing to change this statement if McGimsie's offensive finishes were ahead of quality opponents or a group of nobodies. Green and Mickoski pretty much are a wash, I'll give McGimsie a slight advantage over Ftorek for now, and I think McDougall is better than Drozdetsky. I'd also say Philadelphia's group is a little better defensively due to Ftorek being the best defensive player on either line. Each line contains one two-way player and two average defensive players. But, Ftorek is better defensively than Mickoski considering his 6th in Selke voting.
Raise your hand if you're surprised Billy called an advantage for his line. I especially like how a single 6th place vote for Ftorek makes him a better defensive conscience than Mickoski who spent his career playing on checking lines before the award even existed. Anyway, this is how I see it:
  • C: McGimsie is much more talented than Ftorek - I showed that he is almost certainly a better overall offensive player than Philadelphia's "star" McDougall
  • LW: Mickoski is at least as good an overall player as Red Green, and he's much better suited to the role as a digger to a small center
  • RW: Too close to call between two offense-only guys
  • Overall: With the advantages at LW and C, Eden Hall has a moderately large advantage.

Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-31-2011 at 02:30 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote