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09-02-2011, 10:55 AM
  #84
DrinkFightFlyers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Watch them play and understand the roles they were in. Look at their production versus minutes played. Look at who they have had on their depth chart above them on their team. How JVR was brought alone is no different than how the Flyers have brought alone EVERY rookie/young player they've had for the past nearly 10 years. If JVR had been on a team that absolutely sucked and was basically told "just go play and see what you can do" then he'd have had a much much better rookie and 2nd season and you wouldn't even be discussing this as JVR would have been in contention for the Caulder in his rookie season, something MPS was NEVER considered for. The Flyers will NOT have anyone win the Caulder BECAUSE we do NOT let our rookies "free weild". They play limited minutes an in a very very sturctured role where they must first PROVE they will not be a defensive liability when on the ice. We did it with Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR just as our top end rookies. If MPS had been on the Flyers then he'd have had to play a much more defensive role on Richards wing just like JVR had to do and MPS' numbers would have been lower.

Plain and simply, switch these 2 players on their teams and although we'd be happy to have MPS, EVERYONE would want JVR over MPS. JVR is a true first line winger and future allstar while MPS will be a fringe 1st line/2nd line winger and although a very good player, not allstar worthy.

If anyone can't understand this then I don't know what else to tell you. Don't just stat watch. Try actually WATCHING the players and think about their role on the team and how the team is using said player. Last year it was pretty evident even in the Buffalo series that we were too beat up to win the cup. We almost lost to a team we SHOULD have dominated. With as beat up as we were there was no chance of us beating the Bruins and once that writing was on the wall Lavy pretty much too the restricer plate off of JVR and let him amp up his game. THAT is what you saw last year in the Bruins series, what JVR is TRULY capable of doing. Go back and watch those games again if you can. Next to Thomas, JVR was the most dominant player in the series. Chara was matched up on him every chance they got and not even Chara could stop JVR. Just think about that for a second, Chara is one of the best shut down dmen in the league and JVR went right around him and drove the next pretty much at will. The number of players that can do that to Chara are few and far between and MPS is NOT one of those players. Now, whether or not the Flyers let JVR "amp it up" from the beginning of this season on or restrict him again in an effort to make the all-around team better (by using his very good 2-way play, something he was FORCED to learn in his first 2 years) remains to be seen. Either way, for anyone who actually watches them play would take JVR over MPS every day if the week. Because of how special of a player JVR is going to be is the EXACT reason that Ana could NOT get him in the Pronger trade. Reports were that JVR is the player they really wanted and we wouldn't part with JVR in any scenario. There is a very good reason that Holmgren would NOT trade JVR in the Pronger deal, he knew JVR was going to be a special player.
I'm not really sure I agree with you here. First of all, I never once said in this thread that I wouldn't rather have JvR or that in the end MPS is going to be a hall of famer and JvR a nobody. What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that right now, their value is comparable. MPS is younger, playing on a basement dwelling team with less support than JvR, but still putting up similar numbers to JvR when he was a year older. They are both players with high ceilings. I know JvR showed he has some serious ability in that Boston series, and I am not discounting anything he has done or is capable of, but one series doesn't mean he is a better player. Up until pretty much January of last season, I wasn't all that impressed. Now, obviously that has changed since his second half and playoffs were much better.

What I really don't get is how you are so sure of this without backing it up with anything other than saying "just watch them play" and "look at their production versus minutes." When you have a guy like JvR playing on a line with Carter, Richrds, Giroux, Briere etc, I would expect him to get more points than a player of equal talent playing on a line with lesser players. JvR's points in relation to ice time is higher, but its not like he is averaging a shockingly higher amount than MPS, and he has had two seasons under his belt. For all you know MPS drops 60 points this season. Now, I will admit, I have not seen MPS as much as I have seen JvR, obviously. And I would be willing to bet that that is the case for you, especially if you live in the Philadelphia area (maybe I am wrong, but as much as people on here like to think they are experts on every player in the NHL, very few people watch two different teams on a nightly. Maybe you do, but I would bet you don't). And maybe I am wrong and maybe you've seen MPS more than you have seen JvR. But from what I have seen of the two, read of the two, and what the two have output stat-wise, I don't think at this point in their careers you can really say that one's value is higher than the other. And by saying "just watch them play" isn't a great argument, because I could just sit here and say the same thing.

I'm not too sure how MPS's lack of Calder consideration really plays into the discussion. Same goes for how they are being brought along. Are you saying that because JvR is being brought along slower that has affected his point outputs and that if MPS was being brought along the same way in the Flyers organization MPS would have fewer points than JvR did and conversely that if JvR was on the Oilers he would have had more points?

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